to think that fox hunting ban might have been a mistake?

[lessonsintightropes]

I live in suburban South London and have done for donkeys. Over the last five years foxes have been encroaching a lot into our neighbourhood and have killed a couple of cats, and regularly torn up bins etc. I know at least nine individual foxes by sight. I'm in zone 3!

I was always rabidly anti-hunting on cruelty grounds when I was ill informed younger. My DBrother and DSis live in very rural Hampshire; she used to hunt and now they drag-hunt exclusively, but they lose a lot of chickens, ducks and cats despite stalagluft-style electric fences.

I've rethought my position over time and have come to the conclusion that town people shouldn't dictate to country people how to live, and vice versa. Especially when countryside vermin start inhabiting my street!

What makes me a bit anxious is the risk to children and domestic pets from a growing fox population. It's certainly made my cat anxious and makes me freak out a bit when I see something dog sized in my tiny suburban garden, but am also well prepared to listen to arguments the other direction (although I will always wish they don't rip up my recycling bags).

Would love to know what the MN jury has to say?

oh okay, you have forced it out of me

What's the difference between a weasel and a stoat?

One's weasily recognised - the other's stoatally different.

boom boom

Right. Very good. Well I do too Lt Eve. And your point is what exactly?

I was simply answering your question. Although it was more of a statement.

I think Lackadaisical's description of Charming, whether from the internet or experience was very apt and very interesting. But no more 'right' or 'wrong' than what you were told by an 'old countryman'. FWIW my father is probably what you would describe as an 'old countryman'. He certainly lived most of his formative years 'off the land'.

I can hear you all groaning you know
:o

Ehhn

"But I just don?t understand how people can feel so emotional about fox welfare and yet happily scoff factory farmed meat, which is a bigger cruelty that effects far more animals."

It isn't a question of either/or. I disagree with all hunting as much as I disagree with eating factory farmed meat.

It's perfectly possible to eat ethically reared free range meat even if you are on a limited income as I am (retired). You can still eat meat, just not every day.

Well unfortunately Lt Eve, I lack a countryman for a father and grew up in a housing estate in Randstad, so I have to learn my stuff from people I meet socially. Its amazing the amount if knowledge that is being lost. I will speak to anyone, but I can't stand snobs. And snobs come in all varieties, shapes and forms, nit just in red coats.

btw and incidentally I am literally just back from the West Wales horse sales and anyone who thinks horse riding and owning is (I quote) for 'baying chinless toffs' is so far from the truth that it is laughable.

Burberryqueen - I know! id just love some anti to jump in amongst them and start braying off about toffs and red coats. But you'd never find them at a horse sale, or for that matter an abattoir, or an animal transporters...

Hello burberry, that was my quote and if you check again I think you'll see that I wasn't in fact referring to horse riders and owners. I know plenty of those.

I was referring to people who participate in a hunt.

I'm sure the riders should know more about the hunting! But that wasn't my point.

I just wanted to say that people who hunt are not bloodthirsty, sick, or any of the other adjectives often used to describe them. They mostly love to bits either their horse or their hound or both and are really fascinated by an activity that enables them to use their natural instincts and skills to the full.

hmm well.........it was a good sound bite but wildly inaccurate IME.

So I participate in hunting Squoosh, and I'm a baying chinless toff?

Well, thats news to me! It will be news to my ancestors too that I've been so assimilated into English society! Except it doesn't really exist any more...

Btw can anyone give me a definition of what a 'toff' actually is? I'm struggling to translate it for friends.

lol missabs - are you Dutch?
Toff = pejorative term for the upper classes

*perjorative

I'd love to be chased across the country and then torn to shreds by dogs. Not cruel at all - sounds like lots of fun!

Of course fox hunting is cruel and it is more about people getting dressed up and riding about than it is about keeping the numbers of foxes down. How anyone can argue differently is beyond me. There are much better ways to cull foxes than that.

A friend used to live in a cottage in a small village in a fox hunting area. They were close to large estate. They actually had in the deeds of their house a clause which stated that if a fox was being hunted and ran onto their property including into their house, the hunt was perfectly at liberty to ride through their garden and go info their house. How lovely for them that must have been, the idea that some upper class idiot could just go into their house at any time and kill a fox if they so wished....

Half and half, Burberry Queen. Although according to this thread, I'm a Scottish toff! And my friend, who is Hong Kong Chinese and a pharmacist, is also one. So too are our two friends who live in ex council houses and keep their horses at the local DIY yard, where we all met!

No, I speak perfectly fluent English without an accent, but im having real trouble explaining to my Dutch friends what a toff is, since they say ut hasn't really existed for 50 years.

I will speak to anyone, but I can't stand snobs. And snobs come in all varieties, shapes and forms, nit just in red coats

I can't stand snobs either, I am almost certainly the direct opposite to a snob, when you consider my background. But I am not sure why you are directing that at me as I have mentioned neither snobs or red coats.

I also grew up on a housing estate, albeit one very close to the countryside.

I have simply stated the facts as I have seen them - as are you.

I am completely against fox hunting and dislike those that willingly take part in something that I believe is barbaric, outdated and unnecessary.

I found some of the antis comments very snobbish, in their looking down on people as being more stupid or less well educated than themselves through their choices in life, in not embracing social diversity and choice and different lifestyles, and in perpetuating the notion that people shouldn't learn more about a subject because they 'wouldnt be interested'. I also detected a barely discernable whiff of anti -Scottish sentiment.

I take the liberal view on this.

I think fox hunting is cruel and I wouldn't do it myself. However, I think that we have to respect the right of the individual to make choices that fit in with his/her moral stance on issues like this. Fox hunting does not harm other people and is beneficial to the rural economy. Contrary to popular opinion many different types of people take part in this activity. It is almost Stalinist to want to impose your view of the world on others on issues like this, quite apart from the waste of police time and public money that has been spent on the ban.

Now you are just making things up. One person called you a Scot because:

1. You were rude and dismissive of her and rather than address her by posting name, as is the correct MN ettiquete, you called her the zoologist so she responded in kind.

2. You led other posters to believe that you were scottish by posting that you hunted in Scotland.

There was no anti-scottish sentiment at all, and well you know it.

You are similarly dismissive of "the antis" (as you put it) and are quite goading in your posts.

I do not look down on anyone due to their social standing, intelligence (or lack of). I do look down on anyone who chases foxes whilst on horseback and allows baying hounds to tear foxes to pieces for their enjoyment. There is no need for it and no justification.

Dallas,

There is no real need to eat factory farmed meat yet the majority of our population do it without any thought whatsoever. Do you condemn them so easily?

I disagree ElBurroSinNombre. I think in the UK there are far too many people that are sitting in real poverty, for whom factory farmed meat provides necessary protein that they would otherwise have to get from more expensive sources.

I do not condem those people that buy it, because I do not believe they have a choice.

I do not have an issue with 'hunters' - those that shoot animals for food as they are providing a service (humane cull - well as much as possible and food). Just Fox Hunters.

I also wouldn't have a problem with a farmer that despatched a fox with his trusty shotgun for worrying his sheep.

Fox hunting serves no purpose, it does not rid the rural areas of foxes, it does not act as a natural cull, it does not provide meat for the starving. Neither does it provide much needed exercise for the hounds or horses that they cannot get otherwise - see drag hunting.

All it does is provide the riders with some bloodthirsty fun - that they really do not need.

Have been watching this thread with interest and I have to say that I think that LessMissAbs speaks with calm, authoritative reason on such an emotive subject.

There is so much ignorance and hysteria surrounding hunting and yes people should know what they are talking about before condemning it.

I respect anyone's opinion and right to object but they do have to know the facts and not just hash out the old myths and suppositions

Thats your judgement Dallas,
But why do you need to impose your world view on other equally intelligent and coherant people who happen to think differently to you?

The cruelty argument is a bit of a sham IMO. Each one of us is unconciously involved in many acts of cruelty every day, like eating factory farmed meat. BTW you can get protein from other sources if you really want to.