to think that fox hunting ban might have been a mistake?

[lessonsintightropes]

I live in suburban South London and have done for donkeys. Over the last five years foxes have been encroaching a lot into our neighbourhood and have killed a couple of cats, and regularly torn up bins etc. I know at least nine individual foxes by sight. I'm in zone 3!

I was always rabidly anti-hunting on cruelty grounds when I was ill informed younger. My DBrother and DSis live in very rural Hampshire; she used to hunt and now they drag-hunt exclusively, but they lose a lot of chickens, ducks and cats despite stalagluft-style electric fences.

I've rethought my position over time and have come to the conclusion that town people shouldn't dictate to country people how to live, and vice versa. Especially when countryside vermin start inhabiting my street!

What makes me a bit anxious is the risk to children and domestic pets from a growing fox population. It's certainly made my cat anxious and makes me freak out a bit when I see something dog sized in my tiny suburban garden, but am also well prepared to listen to arguments the other direction (although I will always wish they don't rip up my recycling bags).

Would love to know what the MN jury has to say?

I think making a sport out of anything's death is just wrong.

I live in a semi-rural area but there never were any fox hunts here; i think the proliferation of foxes is due to the encroachment of the town onto their natural habitat.

Lots of people leave out all kinds of junk food for ''the birds'' on my estate and as a result we've got several fairly tame foxes.

I disagree with the concept of hunting any animal with dogs until it's exhausted; there are kinder ways of controlling the populations of vermin animals.

It is worrying to hear that they can kill cats as there are many much-loved pet cats round here. So far the local cats and foxes seem to tolerate each other although my cat actually confronted and chased a couple of foxes which scared me in case they turn on her.

well as someone who lives on rural farmland, I can tell you from my understanding, that people who live in the country shoot foxes that they see on their land. I don't as I don't have a gun

Also stoats and weasels seem to kill more chickens and ducks, for pleasure, than foxes - here anyway- foxes seem to kill more game.

Just from my observation. I am a previous townie :o I have never seen a fox in any of fields round here by, nor my garden. i do smell them sometimes though

boschy is right, it has affected local economies, it would be foolish to think otherwise. Even rural tailors have been affected

And what the zoologist has failed to mention in a rather biased treatise is the eradication of the fox's natural predators in the UK. Hence they will breed to numbers that the environment can sustain, and adaptation means that urban fox numbers are booming.

That said, we do also have more urban areas than before. The UK is a very high density country.

The zoologist has also failed to discuss how well hunting fits into the ecosystem. How it tends to let healthy young foxes escape and so improve the population, how it can target so called rogue foxes which tend to be the old or diseased who attack stock in certain areas because they are ineffective in hunting rabbits, how mounted followers ensure funds for the hunt and how farmer cooperation helps gel together communities, the work the hunt does in maintaining field boundaries, coverts and in dispatching ill animals, the bloodlines of the working dogs, the fact that mounted followers can go places that non mounted followers cannot (ever seen a quad bike jump a hedge?), and so on. There is a lot of knowledge that is being lost, but then the UK is increasingly becoming a poorer environment to live in for many reasons.

I have no remit in persuading people to my way of thinking, but I do hope that people can educate themselves beyond one politically motivated viewpoint or their own limited experience. I can hunt here in Scotland much as before the ban, although fields are bigger. i dont hunt much because I hate the cold, but plan to do it to educate a young horse this winter a few times. Its more popular here than before the ban, possibly because people dont like being told what to think or do in ignorance - perhaps zoologists have a theory about that.

LessMiss. I grew up in an area with a very famous hunt. I saw it first hand. You obviously have exerience, so have I.

How it tends to let healthy young foxes escape and so improve the population. Except the time I actually watched as the hunt stumbled upon a vixen with her new cubs and tore them all to shreds Or the time that a local landlords 2 pet cats were set upon by the hounds during a rest stop

how mounted followers ensure funds for the hunt and how farmer cooperation helps gel together communities Not in my area. The community was torn apart by the hunt - we even had local police officers 'taking sides'

the bloodlines of the working dogs *Versus the amount of beagles that went to rescue or were 'culled' by the RSPCA following the ban, because the 'owners' didn't want them and didn't care what happened to them. My sister had two that were supposedly untrainable and couldn't become pets. Well that was bollocks.

ever seen a quad bike jump a hedge?), No, but marked 'runners' can. You don't have to use quad bikes. It's what we did when we were disrupting the hunt and it was wonderfully successful.

A decent drag hunt can be just as exciting for the horses. They don't care about an animal being torn to pieces at the end of it. They just want to run, and can. It's the HUMANS that want the blood.

Sameoliggi - so you are veggie then, or only eat locally sourced, killed meat, and are not turning a blind eye to animals transported hundreds of miles to the end of their short lives, terrified and confused, with injuries and broken bones not uncommon, only to be separated from their herd, shitting themselves in fear while watching others of their species die before them?

I take it you've never eaten a cheap burger in your life (I've had one and thankfully it put me off years ago) and you dont drink milk, produced by separating young calves from their distressed mothers to go for neat after having hardly any life?

I take it you supported the ban on fur farming, so that the fashion industry now exclusively sources ita fur from unregulated countries that skin animals alive?

I take it you walk to work, lest a wild animal die under your wheels? I take it you live in an ancient house, not a new build whose development has torn up and displaced and caused the deaths of thousands of animals and their ecosystem?

Why specify foxhunting out of all animal cruelty, when by voting with your own feet you could do so much good for animal welfare?

I agree that for the local cats a foxhunt can be just as dangerous as foxes.

"The zoologist"? Pardon? Should I be referring to you as "the scot"?

Foxes have two wild predators in the UK: badgers and eagles. And what eradicated the foxes other wild predators in the UK, exactly? Humans.

The zoologist failed to mention... it tends to let healthy young foxes escape and so improve the population. But I did mention that there is no evidence to suggest that sick or weak foxes are targeted by hounds or hunts.

Foxes are wasteful hunters

I previously explained the reason behind their perceived 'wasteful' nature.

people now dont even have a knowledge of which plants are dangerous to ruminants, how hay is made and what cuts are best, how to make a poultice for a wound out of bran

Why would anyone who is not associated with agriculture need this knowledge? I trust you wouldn't expect the average Joe to understand brain chemistry as well as a neurosurgeon would.

There's also been a lot of mention of how 'inclusive' hunting is, which is bull. The use of a hireling is hardly a suitable suggestion for a novice rider, no matter how enthusiastic they might be, and the traipsing of followers on foot can hardly be described as an inclusive activity.

I do hope that people can educate themselves beyond one politically motivated viewpoint or their own limited experience.

They have. And they still don't like it. Hunting is completely outdated, we have grown out of blood sports. It is also completely ineffective at fox population control, as I explained above.

I think I'll go back to lurking for a bit on this particular thread. Certain posters have more than a whiff of aggression to them.

There are far more effective and humane ways of keeping the fox population down (where they are causing a problem) than chasing them around the countryside.

Why would you refer to me as 'the Scot'? I am not Scottish. They do allow other nationalities in, you know.

Why would you hold yourself out in the public domain as a zoologist and then object to being referred to as one?

FWIW I have no objection to you referring to me as The lawyer', although I do not use my proffessionalism to give my posts on this forum added weight. Res ipsa Locquiter.

I actually object to your hectoring tone more than your misreprsented points if indeed you are a zoologist and not just someone who has read something on the internet. Particularly your crass assumption that people might want to know about the rural traditions of this country. Possibly because if they did, your anti activities wouldn't be so successful. Forget about toffs and whatever, that has to one of the mist snooty comments I gave ever read.

Your comments about hirelings are totally wrong. You can hire bombproof experienced hunters, suitable for novices. Some riding schools also double up. Doing it as a total beginner would probably not be advisable, but then neither would be cycling with your local cycling club peleton, and that requires joining up and a license from a national federation.

YANBU. It certainly was a mistake, for so many reasons, almost the least of which is that it isn't "cruel".

People who enjoyed hunting are not "sick fuckers". They either enjoyed the riding, in which case they generally didn't have a clue what was happening with the hounds and the fox, or they were dedicated dog people who were fascinated with the hounds and enjoyed watching them exercise their natural instinct in a skilful way. The fact that a fox was killed at the end of the process was a functional part of the activity. It was the objective, and there was satisfaction in a job well done, but I didn't see anyone deriving pleasure from the death of the fox, the pleasure is all in the working of the hounds and the horses. Death of livestock and wildlife is so much a part of the lives of so many people who farm and hunt or even just live in the country that I think many of them find it hard to understand why so many get so emotional about it.

Also, I cannot see that killing a wild animal with a dog is any worse than killing it with a gun. Perhaps it is better because it is a predator the animal can understand - it is more natural.

I also agree that some farming practices are far far far worse than hunting a wild animal with a pack of dogs.

I speak as someone who grew up in the suburbs and never hunted who now lives in a very rural area.

The fox hunting issue always brings out massive hypocrisy. Loads of people who get very aerated about the cruelty involved would think nothing of eating battery farmed chicken or using a medicine that has been tested on animals.

I think at the root of it is this idea that cruelty is okay as long as it's not making us seem like the animals that we all are complicit in exploiting and maltreating every day. So we can be as cruel as we like provide it's mechanised, 'scientific', utilitarian and kept behind closed doors. But a type of cruelty that makes us seem more like animals - the thrill of the chase, the excitement of bloodlust and the eventual kill - is somehow horrifying, barbaric and unspeakable.

Personally I take the view that we should be honest about the part of us that is animalistic. Fox hunting may not be pretty, but supporting it (or at least letting people who do get on with it) is a whole lot more honest about human nature than sitting there with your value pack of factory farmed chicken breasts and squealing about the barbarism involved.

Loads of people who get very aerated about the cruelty involved would think nothing of eating battery farmed chicken or using a medicine that has been tested on animals.

I think the dislike of bloodsport stems from something other than utilitarian ideology, actually. In very, very basic terms, the need to eat and have medicine is at least seen as a necessity for survival, whereas the 'animalistic' need for bloodsport is not.

This actually is my last post.

They either enjoyed the riding, in which case they generally didn't have a clue what was happening with the hounds and the fox Ignorance is no excuse. If they are willing to take part in something so polarising then it is incumbent upon them to know all the aspects of what they are doing.

or they were dedicated dog people who were fascinated with the hounds and enjoyed watching them exercise their natural instinct in a skilful way Chasing an animal until it is exhausted is not skillful. Tearing an animal to shreds, limb from limb whilst it is still alive and fighting with each other whilst doing so is not skillful. Watching whilst this happens and then summarily shooting injured dogs so as not to pay vets fees is barbaric.

but I didn't see anyone deriving pleasure from the death of the fox Have you not heard of 'blooding' the young? Or hoisting little kids up in their air with a fox tail wrapped around their necks? Or the 'yard of ale' for the owner/rider of the front running horse (I wonder why drink riding seems to be allowed?)

Also, I cannot see that killing a wild animal with a dog is any worse than killing it with a gun quick clean death or being torn limb from limb whilst exhausted and terrified. Really, you cannot see a difference?

speak as someone who grew up in the suburbs and never hunted who now lives in a very rural area OK, well that explains your views. I hope I have been able to explain some of the things you may not have been aware of, so you can see why for some people this is a very emotive subject.

Drag Hunts give just as much satisfaction, thrill and exercise to horses and dogs. I've taken part myself, just so I understand what it is like. It's not the horses or dogs calling for the ban to be lifted - it's the humans.

Oh for Christ's sake, Lt Eve, blooding and fox tails only happens in antis hand books, not real life. And for that matter, hardly anyone wears red coats now either.

Presumably your comments about taking part in something so polarising extends to being anti foxhunting, or even voting for one political party over another. And how can you criticise people for taking part in something, from which they will gain knowledge, for not yet having enough knowledge? Where do you think I found out about charming from? It wasn't the internet.

And the would-be zoologist who has or has not yet flounced off dramatically - are you really suggesting that people should not extend their knowledge about a subject, because you, and people like you, in their imposed godlike omnipotence, say that they shouldn't?

Why on earth would you speak in favour of people not extending their knowledge on a democratic matter? I see no problem, unless they intend to work in the field and require actual qualifications. And if someone has a particular interest in neurology and wants to find out more about ut, who are you to tell them they shouldn't?

And Lt Eve - draghunting is generally much faster and over les varied terrain than foxhunring, because its not in the farmers interests to allow more access.

I wouldn't take a quality horse on a drag hunt. I would take one on a foxhunt.

Oh for Christ's sake, Lt Eve, blooding and fox tails only happens in antis hand books, not real life

As I said before, I grew up in an area with a very famous hunt and I have seen this with my own eyes. It does take place, and even now there are some that take fake or animal blood on drag hunts so as to 'keep with tradition'.

I did not mention red coats.

Yes, if you are going to take part in something that you know is surrounded by controversy, then it is encumbent upon you to make sure you know all the pitfalls. I have taken part in a number of drag hunts for this very reason, I wanted to see first hand if the dogs and horses were enjoying it, before I declared that they were 'as good' for the animals purposes. They were, so I do.

Yes, I did my research before I voted. Doesn't everyone?

Charming? I suppose you saw it in action, are you an animal behaviourist able to link the foxes actions to outcome? Or would you ask a behaviourist what it meant?

Right. Very good. Well I do too Lt Eve. And your point is what exactly?

I had charming described to me by an old countryman at a hunt. I was then interested enough to read up about it.

According to the zoologist, those who dont already know about rural matters and ancient traditions shouldn't inform themselves more about it because they won't find it interesting.

The other anti tactic is to 'demonise' perfectly ordinary people. That's probably next...

I agree with lessmissabs esp re animal testing, factory farmed meat and battery hens.

I don't have much sympathy for poor little foxy loxy in comparison.

It is a shame no-one has picked up on my point about stoats and weasels as I wanted to trot out a rubbish joke about the difference between them....

aww go on.....

but what about basil brush? he didn't smell and he was quite funny, even with a hand shoved up his poor bottom

boom boom!!