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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Jeremy Forrest's sister's comments.

239 replies

Jayne3474 · 25/06/2013 10:36

Sorry mail link (!):

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2347879/My-brother-paedophile-loves-girl-abducted-Jeremy-Forrests-sister-says-family-support-couple-asked-looked-jailed.html

aibu to think she has a point about the paedophile bit?

Don't get me wrong, I think what Forrest did was immoral, and took advantage of a vulnerable young woman.

But surely a paedophile is one interested in pre-pubescent children.

AIBU to be annoyed at this term for truly sick perverts being thrown around so casually?

OP posts:
noddyholder · 25/06/2013 15:16

I don't want to engage with you sorry I find your whole stance offensive.

ArthurSixpence · 25/06/2013 15:24

But you don't want to explain why you think I am wrong?

All I have done is ask questions and provided examples of where the law is inconsistent and pointed out that which is rather obvious: that the law gets in to trouble when it has no flexibility. I've also pointed out that paedophile has a specific meaning that does not fit this case and provided an example from experience to illustrate the point that as none of us know JF we cannot say if he is an ephebophile (interested in post pubesecent but young people) - we can only speculate. Someone claimed that my mistaking a 14 year old for an 18 year old and kissing her with her consent was sickening although curiously failed to mention that the people who had let her in to the over 18 venue and served her had broken the law. Is that what you are thinking of that you find offensive?

Ehhn · 25/06/2013 15:26

"You cannot describe any girl under sixteen as predatory"... Well, talking about myself (and my friends in my circle at school, who were all happy, intelligent young women who have gone on to get good MAs, MSCs and/or PhDs) - we were predatory! Firstly, we would delight in fooling bouncers into letting us in to overage pubs/clubs; secondly, we would set our sights on a man in our local night club and target him. My friend (who is now qualifying as a doctor, and is a server in her local church) got told to "tone it down" as she was being so badly behaved with one guy.
I'm not proud of how we behaved - as I said in an earlier post, it was immature and I look back with a fair measure of shame - but we were relentless in our pursuit of individuals. One girl in my GCSE class did it to our slightly nerdy but very nice history/politics teacher, just to delight in his obvious discomfort. If he had responded, she would have pulled him just to say she had, and not thought about the consequences at all. We were driven by cockiness and hormones and, perhaps, early sexualisation (through media?). All of my friends had older boyfriends: my first boyfriend was 5 years older and one friend went out with a man 15years her senior from when she was 15 to 21; they are still friends now.

It may be that none of this behaviour is relevant to the Forrest case; it may be that she never had such ideas about her teacher and he exploited her vulnerability. With the anonymising of the student, which is appropriate for her protection, she nonentheless remains a mystery - she could be like that girl in my class, or completely naive/innocent and utterly exploited, or somewhere between the two. I am not victim blaming; we just seem to have different responses to teenage male vs teenage female sexuality, which is reflected in the media (eg that daily m link to the boy who slept with his teacher). This is also reflected in the different reactions in school age students aged 15-18 who sleep with multiple partners - lads are treated as heroes by their friends, girls often are bullied/victimised as sluttish, or are perceived as doing it because of some emotional failing (lonely/insecure/trust/father issues etc), yet it is never considered whether lads do it for the same pejorative reasons, or girls for the same reason as boys (pleasure).

As I also said in my previous post, I absolutely do not agree with what Forrest did. It was irresponsible and worse as he was supposed to be the older, guiding pedagogical figure. He handled it completely wrongly & immorally. If the girl had been an adult, he would still have been using her as the ow, which shows his selfishness and lack of morals.

Ps I only mention academic qualifications to show that we turned out ok and that we have grown up to have sensible jobs and lives despite our stupid behaviour as teens.

Ehhn · 25/06/2013 15:26

Wow, sorry for the essay...

flippinada · 25/06/2013 15:32

I mentioned this on another thread but the debate over age of consent and whether JF should or shouldn't be labeled a paedophile is something of a side issue - affording as it does the opportunity for apologists to sidetrack the debate.

Maybe it would be more helpful (whatever your personal opinion) to refer to him as a sex offender?

flippinada · 25/06/2013 15:38

I wouldn't say you were predatory Ehhn, reading back your post - it sounds to me like you were just acting within the normal spectrum of teenage girl behaviour.

Lovecat · 25/06/2013 15:43

Arthur, pointing the finger at the others who were ALSO wrong doesn't let you off, you know. Going 'but they did it too, miss' doesn't absolve you of your responsibilities. Angry

LineRunner · 25/06/2013 15:43

Ehhn, As you say, your groups of chums' experiences were not those of Forrest's victim. In fact she seems to have been isolated by him.

ArthurSixpence · 25/06/2013 15:53

Lovecat are you talking about snogging the 14 year old when I was 22?

She was in an over 18 club
I met her at the bar where she was buying beer
She looked 18 to me, to the bar staff, to the doormen and to my friend
She told me about several other gigs she'd seen that year at the same venue in a way that suggested she was a regular
She told me about her 'exams' in an ambiguous way - obviously I didn't notice at the time

Given that she looked 18, was in an over 18 club, sounded and behaved like an 18 year old and had presumably provided ID to show she was 18 that was good enough to fool someone paid to detect such things, do you think it was unreasonable of me to conclude in the semi-darkness of the bar that she was 18?

LineRunner · 25/06/2013 16:05

ArthurSix, which just goes to show what a shitbag Forrest is to pursue a schoolgirl of 14 in his care.

SauceForTheGander · 25/06/2013 16:34

Ehhn your behaviour sounds immature and experimental rather than predatory. It's up to the responsible adults to recognise that and not take advantage of it.

StuntGirl · 25/06/2013 16:42

Stop victim blaming.

It is not a romance movie.

I have a helpful list of words to describe the scummer should anyone so need them, since paedophile is causing such grief:

Predatory
Abuser
Devious
Calculating
Liar
Cheater
Criminal
Immoral
Unethical

Some people need to have a fucking word with themselves.

ArthurSixpence · 25/06/2013 16:45

Still not clear who is blaming the victim.

StuntGIrl it's not that paedophile is "causing grief" - it's just the wrong word. It's like calling a cabbage a lettuce.

StuntGirl · 25/06/2013 16:49

And this cabbage is an abusive, predatory sex offender. So lets stick to that and not get side tracked.

CalamityJ · 25/06/2013 16:51

Legally there is no such thing as a sexually mature 15 year old. Some argue how they act/look/talk shows they know what they're doing. But the law says they don't. I agree with the definitions on page 1 splitting the age groups and those who are attracted to them. But he abused his position as a teacher so he is an abuser if not strictly a paedophile. Also, flame me if you like but 15 year olds should not be having sex, with anyone, it's illegal for a reason. They are not sexually mature even if they have gone through puberty. Studies show the longer you wait the less likely you are to regret it and the more likely you are to use contraception.

DuelingFanjo · 25/06/2013 16:53

I thought the interview with his sister was quite measured until she started trying to blame his wife. I have said in another thread, I bet if the victim hadn't been so keen to support him she would be blaming her too.

OrmirianResurgam · 25/06/2013 16:54

But he is one. He KNEW she was underage. So by any definition he is a paedophile.

noddyholder · 25/06/2013 16:56

Her family dynamic made her vulnerable. No matter how mature she looks it is irrelevant. At that age you can think you know it all and if you have a difficult home life then any attention is welcome. You cannot really rationalise at that age itis pure infatuation and flattery and perhaps an escape route.He abused that and it was planned so to me he is a sick fucker who targeted a pupil he was supposed to be teaching. The word love is being thrown about here but if he had any true feelings for her he would have waited until she had left school although by then she may have matured more and seen sense

ArthurSixpence · 25/06/2013 16:57

Not by the actual definition of the word paedophile, Ormirian It specifically applies to those attracted to pre-pubescent children.

noddyholder · 25/06/2013 17:02

I agree ormirian

DuelingFanjo · 25/06/2013 17:08

I think that there are definitely people who are using the whole 'he's not a paedophile' thing to excuse him for the whole thing. Not sure why anyone would want to excuse what he did but I can understand that the terminology is a bit skewed. Maybe Paedophile is the wrong word for many but he's still a horrible filthy manipulative pervert who has sex with children. Which we can all agree is worth sending him to prison for, yeah?

Thymeout · 25/06/2013 17:15

Not on this thread, Dueling. But there's definitely a wider discussion in rl.

And yes, I agree, the position of power aspect does seem to be played down.

Just out of curiosity, does anyone have a 14/15 yr old daughter who's expressed an opinion?

hellymelly · 25/06/2013 17:28

I am torn by this. I have daughters and the thought of them being taken away by a man as old as him when they are 15 is horrifying. But I also knew quite a few girls who had boyfriends that age when we were 15/16 (in one case 14). All those girls seemed to me at the time to be in charge and making a free choice, some of them really did all the chasing and some lied about their age, having a grown up boyfriend with a car and cash was seen as kudos. (I was 15 in 1979 so attitudes were rather different then, read Jilly Cooper for refs from that time).

merrymouse · 25/06/2013 17:32

I think all this argument about whether he is or isn't a paedophile is trying to normalise his behaviour.

He was not deceived by somebody he met in a nightclub. He knew perfectly well how old she was. He started behaving inappropriately at least 4 years before any relationship would have been legal. He stole his wife's passport. He had a duty of care to look after this girl, but repeatedly lied to his employer and her parents etc. etc. etc.

Jayne3474 · 25/06/2013 17:33

Actually, no, I don't think he is a sick pervert. Immoral? Tick Taking advantage of a position? Tick Manipulative? Tick Should never be allowed to teach again? Tick.

No to label him a 'sick pervert' seems hysterical.

Prefer to reserve that label for those who molest little kids, not willing 15-year-olds.

OP posts:
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