To feel annoyed English will never become the main language in DP's life...

[chicoingles]

Hi there,

My DP is Spanish and would say she was fluent in English (very good English accent and only noticeable she is foreign when she pronounces certain words, but you couldn't guess she was Spanish at all) but when she gets angry/is tired tends to switch to Spanish. We have been together for 7 years now and it has always been like this, although we did spend the first 4 years of our relationship mainly speaking in Spanish, whereas now we mainly speak English. I do have have a degree in Spanish but feel our relationship works better in English. AIBU thinking English will never become totally natural for her? Would be very interested in hearing the opinions of any foreign ladies who have an English DP.

I am not sure it is a wind up. I have known men like this, men who marry foreign wives for that little bit of pretty exoticism but don't actually expect them to be foreign. Or at least only when it suits them.

Has the Polish girl woman at your work been with her boyfriend for seven years?

Perhaps he is learning Polish. Perhaps she does speak Polish when tired and then has to think how to put it in English.

So that's one example. There are lots of different ones from long term relationships on here. Any comments on any of those?

Oh, and why didn't you answer my second question?

I'm English. In Italy.

When you get tired or stessed your "other" language can and does desert you.

Which made giving birth lots of fun. Not.

I am not sure what you expect people to do in that situation. Stop being human ?

What a strange post! My DH is Italian and we speak both languages. In front of our son we follow OPOL (I speak only English to him and he speaks just Italian) and alone we speak both languages to each other, but usually I speak in English and he replies in Italian.

When I am Italy it does get very tiring speaking Italian all the time and I start to make mistakes so can totally understand why your DP slips when she is tired or angry.

I don't understand why you would want to deny your partner her language and culture in this way?

I remember a parent where I work said that her husband didnt want her teaching her little girl Spanish as she was in THIS country now and should speak English It was really sad the mum was Mexican and wanted her little girl to be bi lingual

YABU and your attitude is odd, especially as you yourself speak spanish well. Most people I know who are in a relationship and have different languages as their mother tongue speak both languages to each other and their children grow up bilingual.

If I was your wife I would be upset that you were not accepting of my roots. You are being very unfair imo and you sound controlling.

Your wife is Spanish and Spanish will always be her mother tongue. What an odd OP.

English is my second language, but I find it much easier to speak English, even (or maybe particularly) when I'm tired or emotional. I find talking in my native language increasingly difficult, can't remember words etc. However, if my husband had ever told me that it annoyed him if I talked in 'my' language, I would have thought that weird, rather immature and probably controlling.

We are all different. Some people are happy to speak another language most or even all of the time, others are not. So what? You really are being very unreasonable to be 'annoyed' by it.

Nope femme fatale! Ah, denotes my accent somewhat. You almost hear the "duff duff duffers" of eastenders sometimes at the end of what I say! Or Jamie oliver..... Eek!

How bizarro. Is your relationship an equal partnership generally, would you say? Are there any big gaps in age, income, education, class/background?

Just wondering why you think it would be fair for her to do all the work on this one facet of your relationship. You have two different mother tongues, but you'd prefer if one person did 100% of the adapting for the other's convenience, despite actually being a linguist yourself.

Do you think she would be proving something to you in terms of how much effort she is prepared to go to for you? And if so, when do you think she might notice how much you are prepared to go to for her?

My wife in Spanish and I am English. When we met as 20 year olds I didnt speak a word of Spanish, while she was fluent in English

After a few months I decided to start learning Spanish, after all, I was (and still am) in love with her therefore I thought (and still think) that speaking her language is essential

So now, 13 years later, I am fluent in Spanish and in our daily lives we speak both languages, as does our little boy

I passionately feel that if you love someone then you should speak their language. It really isnt such a big commitment. I can't imagine not being able to chat and laugh to wife's family members, it would be awful, and I am sure they would hate me for it, especially given how important the extended family is in Spain.

Above all of this, the OP has a degree in Spanish! And yet you are not fluent, I cannot believe it, what were you doing all those years!

Although I agree with some of what you are saying, you are very unreasonable.

I cannot understand how somebody who works with languages would seek to obliterate mother-tongue from another human being. You of all should know how important language is for personal, and cultural identity, especially if living abroad.

What is it really about he speaking Spanish that you dislike?

I am Norwegian, my husband is Polish. I have lived in the UK since I was 21, he since he was 18. We both speak fluent English, we speak English together and with our children (who are English Norwegian bilingual)
My husband also speaks Norwegian. We lived in Norway for 3 years, and he did a 1 year Norwegian course. His Norwegian is not as good as his English. Our relationship work better in English than in Norwegian, but this is mostly due to having dated, fallen in love, and gotten to know each-other "in English". Maybe it would have been different if we met in Norway and he spoke Norwegian? The second reason is that the limitations of his language, although fluent to chat, to go shopping, etc, falls short when discussing budgeting, finance, our children, and life issues. We instantly change to speak English together. It is just easier. I dont speak any Polish. He speaks English, Polish, Norwegian, and understands some Russian and Czech. I speak English and Norwegian and understand Swedish and Danish. We cant "wish away" any of the languages.

I have a friend whose mother is Belgian and her Father is Moroccan. Her father never spoke Arabic at home. My friend feels that she has lost some of her identity, culture and heritage, through her father never speaking to her in Arabic, because there is so much identity tied up in the language.

When you look at indigenous populations around the world, like for example the Sami people in Norway, who suffered language oppression, and were forced to speak Norwegian as opposed to their native tongues, this has caused all sorts of identify problems.

So, seeing there is no practical reasons why your dp should speak English all the time, I ask again, what is the real reason you want your dp to only speak English? What is behind this? I think you should examine this carefully, and also whether you and her have a future together, when you are so opposed to something so quintessentially her, her Spanish language and heritage.

YABVU I am French, have lived here for 22 years and speak perfect English but I am still French! A lot of my culture, habits are French. Speaking English all the time won't change that.

My DS is very lucky growing up with not only two languages but two culture to take from.

So enjoy the fact that you have such a wide range of cultural experiences to discuss and offer.

I dated a French guy for a long time. My French is very good and I understand perfectly, as was his English but I spoke Engilsh to him and he spoke to me in French. Effectively this meant that all our conversations were bilingual, with a bit of franglais thrown in, but it meant we both had access to the nuances and words we needed whilst being able to understand the other. It worked perfectly. Perhaps this is something you could try?

Chico, I think you're being a bit of a gilipollas tbh. I have a Spanish partner, and naturally he speaks inSpanish when he's tired or annoyed, just like I speak in English when i'm tired or annoyed. I really don't see what the big deal is. I think one of the beautiful things about our relationship is sharing our languages and learning from each other.

You also said she's insisting on getting married in Spain. I don't blame her! Spanish weddings are amazing!

Its also particularly sad for the OP that he has gained so little from studying a languages degree. What is the point of studying an Arts degree like this if it doesn't at least give you an appreciation of other languages and culture, and broaden the mind? QuintessentialOldDear has given a far better depiction of language issues than the closed-minded OP.

I have actually come across this attitude in the North East of Scotland, the sort of "we are right and everyone else is wrong" attitude and I wonder if this explains the OP's attitude. Certainly if I were Spanish and thinking of marrying this man and found this out, I'd tell him to take a running jump.

Chico: My language is Finnish (unrelated to any other languages, apart from Estonian and Hungarian - but only grammatically). My own, long-suffering, Mediterranean mother had to learn it as an adult. Despite her best efforts she still makes mistakes after 35 years in the country, and 30 years in working life. DH would like to learn it, but simply doesn't have the time (he is self-employed with a start-up). It doesn't bother me in the slightest - all my relatives speak English anyway. We do whatever comes naturally to us, at the moment.

Also, my DH is a linguist and says that there is a cut-off point in childhood after which you cannot learn a language up to native standard. So, unless your DP learned English under the age of 10 (ish) (I'm pretty sure it's around that age, but not 100%), she will never speak as a native. She might come very, very close to it, but it will always be a bit of an effort (even if she forgets her Spanish to some degree - I know a lot of people who feel that they do not speak ANY language up to a native standard because of this - me included). Same goes about your Spanish, of course.

Good to hear you're going to do OPOL with any potential DC. Bi (Tri) - lingualism is such a gift and makes the brain more "flexible". From my own experience, it really works, even if at times she might be talking in Spanish and the DC will answer in English.

P.S: OP: I hope I'm wrong, but you sound slightly patronising with regard to us "foreigners". We are not some cute, fluffy creatures to be observed and admired for our quirks. We have our own countries where you'd be the "weird" one.

OP are you saying that she reverts to speaking Spanish when in the company of people who don't speak Spanish, thereby excluding them from the conversation?

Because then I would say she was in the wrong, although I have always reverted to English when I'm very upset, so I can understand it.

If her speaking Spanish to you when the two of you are alone is bothering you then I'm afraid I have no idea what you are complaining about.

"Also, my DH is a linguist and says that there is a cut-off point in childhood after which you cannot learn a language up to native standard. So, unless your DP learned English under the age of 10 (ish) (I'm pretty sure it's around that age, but not 100%), she will never speak as a native. "

I am surprised to hear a linguist make a statement as categorical as that.

The truth as far as I can see (and I have spent my life around language departments and read a fair amount of the academic literature on bilingualism) is that different people have different abilities and different cut-off points.

It is common to find it difficult to learn the phonetics of another language after puberty, but that is not the same as a one-size-fits-all cut-off point. Some people do manage it; some academics I have known are indistinguishable from native speakers despite having taken the language up at university. It will obviously partly depend on the range of phonemes in your native language and how much they differ from the target language, also on things like pitch accent. For an Englishman to learn to speak phonetically accurate Arabic after childhood- very, very hard. For a Swede to learn to speak Italian- far less so.

As for grammatical correctness and writing, there has never been any evidence of a cut-off point. Joseph Conrad's written English was quite adequate, really.

Not that it matters to the OP's argument.

My Aunt was born and raised in Germany until she was 10yo, she never spoke German when she came to the UK and now can't speak it at all, my maternal GM also is shit at German now after living in the UK for 30 years and not using it. I find that really sad tbh.

YAB really really U.

Cory: I'm surprised to hear that. DH is, however, not specialised in children or bi-lingualism, and went to uni in the late 80's, so there might be new developments he is not aware of. In my experience (I come from a very multicultural family), the cut-off point makes sense.

It is relevant to the OP, as far as, if you can't speak like a native (and probably never will), you might feel like the native speaker will always have the upper hand in arguments, etc.

Toys, I think the cut-off point makes sense for the average person, but that it is always unsafe to make predictions about any one person because you don't know if they are the average person.

My db took up German at school in his early teens; the only exposure he had had previously was a few nursery rhymes and similar from our mother whose accent was nowhere near native. His first exposure to native speakers was when he was about 17. He has since lectured at a German university, he writes books in German and I have been told repeatedly, by different highly educated Germans, that they could not tell him from a native speaker.

But since he speaks at least a dozen languages, having grown up in a monolingual home, I strongly suspect he is not your average person.

All the same, I very much doubt he could have done the same with Chinese, because the two languages are too different.

If two languages share the same sounds (not entirely true of Swedish and German but more so than of English and German) then the phonetic cut-off point is going to be less of a problem. Spanish to Italian is not going to be the same as English to Swedish.

There are exceptions to every rule, of course, Cory. Your DH sounds amazing! To hear that he was monolingual as a child makes it even more remarkable.

OP I'm just going to go the route of... there are other issues here. This is not what you want and it's not what's best for her.

Rethink the relationship.

And yes YAB absolutely U but I'll be charitable on this occasion and put it down to this being part of an overall evaluation of the relationship by you.