to be disappointed with Brown Owl

[parakeet]

My 7-year-old daughter has just returned from her first Brownie camp sleep over. She enjoyed it during the day but when she came home the next day she tearfully told us that she had got upset at night and Brown Owl (the leader) wasn't very nice to her.

They were all staying in a kind of lodge with a dormitory for about 15 girls and a separate bedroom for the leaders. Apparently she went into the kitchen crying to Brown Owl several times and she said to her crossly "I don't want to hear it." There were apparently a couple of "section leaders" - older teenage girls - there too, who were nice to her, but she still seems to have been quite upset and now says she doesn't want to go on the next sleepover.

I realise these Brownie leaders do all this voluntarily, and I am very grateful to them for all their sterling work. Yet I would have expected Brown Owl to have comforted a crying and homesick 7-year-old, not been dismissive. AIBU?

We would be extremely reluctant to physically handle a child like that. It's all too easy to have the situation where a homesick child reports that "and Brown Owl gave me a hug" and to have a much more volatile parent than the OP (who said that she would approach it calmly) get very defensive and make all kinds of complaints. (We've had a complaint go to County Commissioner over supervision levels on an evening out- we were fully supported by Girl Guiding, we were well over recommended ratios, and the child's story did not add up- she blamed bruises from rollerskating on a gang of teenagers. We had other issues on trips that always led to a confrontation, and when we suggested that she joined another unit, we were then accused of discrimination. Why he was so desperate to have her in our unit if we were apparently so awful, I will never understand.)

Potentially leaders' careers (as many are CRBed) could be on the line if the parent took an allegation to an extreme level. That can still leave a lasting legacy even when it's been dismissed. Yes, that's extreme, but it's a fear that many people working with children have. Most would rather not risk it. In teaching we are legally allowed to touch a pupil, but we are told DON'T, as it's not worth the risk of allegations being made.

MrsMook you are being misinformed by your management.

I work in schools as do my 2 sisters. In some, over zealous management advice against touching. In most, a hug or quick cuddle (especially of younger infants) are part of the day and there is absolutely nothing wrong with it.

Personally I would never hug a child if I were on my own however in a reception class with another adult present and 25 other children, I let children sit on my knee and I hug them. It is perfectly fine and indeed often necessary.

OP here. Thanks to everyone for your responses. Some people were asking for clarification, so this is all my daughter told me: she went into the kitchen where the Brown Owl and teenage leaders were "a few times" crying because she wanted me. On the last time, Brown Owl was cross and said: "I don't want to hear it." The teenager leaders were, by all accounts, sympathetic, and kept going into the dorm to see if she was alright.

I was interested to hear that some Brown Owls take a deliberate approach of being firmer themselves, while letting the teenage leaders give the cuddles. Perhaps that is what happened here.

To those people who accuse me of wanting to go in all guns blazing: I specifically said I had no intention of that. I'm going to go in to ask about what happened, thank them for the help they did provide, and discuss whether we should go ahead with the next sleepover (which she is already signed up for). Needless to say, I'm thinking probably not.

parakeet, may I suggest that when you speak to Brown Owl, you do so with your DD present. It's called "closing the loop".

I have had Cub parents come to me with questions about something that has been reported to them by their child. Other than for delicate matters, I usually ask the child to tell us both about it again, and invariably I end up saying "Now, what about the bit you've missed out ...?", i.e. the other half of the story.

I think that you need to let the dust settle before deciding on the next sleepover. She has come home tired, and of course she missed you. What she hasn't done yet is tell you what an amazing time she had. A lot of children come home from camps and have a good weep, but it is very, very rarely because they were genuinely unhappy during the event.

Thanks, I'll do that. And actually she did tell me about how much she enjoyed it on both the first and second day.

So can I respectfully ask what the problem is Parakeet? Your DD went away and had a good time, she was a bit homesick at night and Brown Owl told her to go back to bed. Where she did the go to sleep and got up the next day and had another brilliant day.

Am I missing something?

(I work in secondary schools so giving a teenager a hug/ other touching is a different situation to a 4-5 year old, and is more likely to result in a difficult situation).

I wish we did live in a society where we can feel comfortable about touching a child in an appropriate way, and not have to worry about the potential for consquences.

I wish that all parents were prepared to have a calm conversation when an issue arises. It's only a few that get confrontational in their approach, but it can make us feel defensive.

I am a brownie guider and went to a camp last year where 1 dorm kept me up most of the night while the other guiders slept through.

One of the brownies in the dorm got upset the following night and I did comfort her. But due to being so exhausted from the night before and then cooking all day for 25 people, I fell asleep early. This brownie kept knocking on my door and the guider in charge checked but realised I was sound asleep so she took over the caring roll.

Mum and dad had everything explained to them at the camp pick up time. But I still got an email criticising the fact I didn't wake myself up to deal with their daughter. I was also called a liar, which took 3 guiders to calm me down about that line in the email.

I'd definitely speak to the guiders about it. Just saying that she said she got upset and take it from there.

As ExcuseTypos said, if your DD is usually happy with Brown Owl and is happy to return to the weekly sessions, then I would be inclined to keep her off the next camp and put it down to a misunderstanding.

However, some years back when I was a Brownie our Brown Owl was a screaming monster. In addition to being screamed at, I remember being dragged by my hair, slapped on the (bare) thigh and shut in the kitchen with the lights off (and told that if I turned the lights on, she would shut me in the toilets instead where the light switch would be outside and out of reach). I was a very goody goody little girl and never in trouble at school. I never understood what I'd done wrong, aside from the kitchen incident which was because I gave the wrong answer to a question. I never told my parents, because Brown Owl said she'd have to tell them what a horrible little girl I really was then. I thought she was doing me a favour by keeping it quiet.

Not saying your DD's Brown Owl is like that OP! Just trying to make the point that for every 9,999 brilliant and dedicated volunteers, there will be one who is struggling.

Grovee, you already know this but the parents were totally in the wrong after your pack holiday.

I get very little of this kind of thing from my parents. Perhaps I'm just lucky.

The worst I had was a parent coming in to tell me I was 'picking' on their child. I respectfully asked them what sort of person would volunteer their own free time in order to seek out children to pick on. And then asked if they were really accusing me of being that sort of person. At that point they backed off, if they hadn't I would have asked them to remove their daughter from the perceived risk (ie, me).

Life is far too short for this kind of angst. You either trust the adults who voluntarily give up their time for your children. Or you don't. And if you don't then you didn't ought to be leaving said children in the situation.

With a full unit and 10 on the waiting list I can't be that much of an ogre thou go

To answer your question Picture, I would like to hear an adult's version of what happened, to help me make a decision about whether to let her attend the next sleepover. Daughter is currently saying she doesn't want to, but if she changes her mind in six months' time (quite possible), then it could affect my decision.

Poor you NQS, that's dreadful

Fair enough OP. In another 6 months time your daughter will be that bit more mature and I'd imagine more likely to get through the night without crying. I'd also consider whether or not half an hours sadness at night is a problem when stacked up against 16 hours (or whatever) of wakeful fun and enjoyment.

NQS, just seen your post. That sounds horrible. Poor you.

As with most areas of child caring girglguiding volunteers are much better trained and much better supervised than they once were and I would hope that your experience is much less likely now.

6 months does make a huge difference. Deciding closer to the time would give you a better idea. There's not usually a rush.

We get roughly a third of girls coming away with us. There is a regular core, and some occasionals. Some girls aren't ready for a long time- one was 10 1/2 before she felt ready recently. Our unit does a lot outside pack nights, so that spreads the interest out across the year as it wouldn't be practical for many parents to send their girls to most events.

i"m surprised by the harshness of some of the posts on here. I think it is totally reasonable for you to go and talk to Brown Owl OP, and sounds like you were always planning on handling it well. YANBU also to feel (provisionally) upset that your daughter was spoken to like that. I also don't think you should assume that your daughter was somehow lying. I certainly didn't lie about that sort of thing at age 7 and you know your daughter best.

Great that people volunteer their free time for activities like this, but when you volunteer you sign up to be patient with the kids too. I remember having a horrible time at Brownie camp as a child and feeling terribly homesick in the night and receiving short shrift from Brown Owl. Yes, she may have been disturbed by 20 other girls that night but that is what she signed up for when taking on the volunteer role. Similarly if someone volunteered to work with the elderly it wouldn't be acceptable to suddenly lose patience and shout at an old lady after a trying day with the other residents either.

I agree, sandwichyear, but I also think that what some of us have been suggesting is that, if Brown Owl was trying to help the girl settle and get through the night peacefully (the girl, that is, Brown Owl probably had little chance of that anyway), a "tough love" approach might well be more effective than an indulgent one.

I did mean to add that I think it's better regulated now! I am 33, so it was a little while ago.

I have a lot of faith in the current system and volunteer myself (I co-run the local toddler group) and will be encouraging my own daughter to join Brownies (or Scouts now, I suppose) when she's old enough.

In between the madness I did make lots of new friends and enjoyed our day trips away (our pack didn't do overnighters)

I think you are being unfair on the Brown Owl OP.

You said in your thread title you were 'disappointed' in her, yet she has given up her time to take your daughter and others away for the weekend.

If all of the 15 children had got up in the night 'a few' times, I should imagine it was getting a bit tiresome and can fully see why she might not have thought cuddles were the best way of getting your daughter back to bed.

If your daughter is not mature enough to cope on an overnight stay without wanting you then I think it is very unfair to consider sending her again until she can.

I don't think you should even mention it to the Brown Owl but should wait until your daughter is able to cope in the same situation thereby resolving the problem as it shouldn't arise again.

Another Brown Owl popping up to say that you should talk to your daughter's leader. It may be that she was too short with your daughter..that after several trips to and from the dorm there was nothing more she could do to calm your daughter except try and take the wind from her sails to get her to stop. But do decide how you are going to proceed if it was the case that she was harsher than you think fair?

If I end up concluding from the conversation that I think she was harsher than I think fair I am going to do...precisely nothing . Daughter still wants to go to the weekly brownies, so no intention of pulling her out. This is purely to inform our decision about the next trip.

Yes, my initial reaction was disappointment that she said those words and didn't give a cuddle. But all the comments from the Brown Owls and leaders here have been highly informative. Especially the people saying how exhausting these trips are. I have to ask...why on earth do you do it?

In part cos we are mental but a lot of us were involved as kids and loved it so want to make sure the opportunities are still there for future generations.

It is fun and amazingly rewarding.

I can't pretend every single moment is a blast, but the good far outways the bad- and it's the same for your daughter. She had a crap 39 minutes in an otherwise fab 24 hours.

As ratios go, that's pretty good!

Sorry meant 39 mins,

AHH, bollocks 30 minutes, 30