to be disappointed with Brown Owl

[parakeet]

My 7-year-old daughter has just returned from her first Brownie camp sleep over. She enjoyed it during the day but when she came home the next day she tearfully told us that she had got upset at night and Brown Owl (the leader) wasn't very nice to her.

They were all staying in a kind of lodge with a dormitory for about 15 girls and a separate bedroom for the leaders. Apparently she went into the kitchen crying to Brown Owl several times and she said to her crossly "I don't want to hear it." There were apparently a couple of "section leaders" - older teenage girls - there too, who were nice to her, but she still seems to have been quite upset and now says she doesn't want to go on the next sleepover.

I realise these Brownie leaders do all this voluntarily, and I am very grateful to them for all their sterling work. Yet I would have expected Brown Owl to have comforted a crying and homesick 7-year-old, not been dismissive. AIBU?

curlew - you will no doubt have done on all the child protection courses that are mandatory and be aware what bollocks we are taught. I am not saying I am agreeing with it, I am just stating what we have been told is 'good practice', likewise the not being allowed to give a child a lift to activities even when they are your next door neigbhour.

But agree with others, some children are just not ready for sleepovers, we have 12 year olds who just don't want to come to camp, doesn't matter, they can still enjoy other activities.

As a Guider of 34 years I've probably said those words hundreds of times.I very much doubt your daughter was sobbing with home sickness . Much more likely she had been up and down like a yoyo and was over tired and over excited. Sometimes you just have to be firm. Please don't be so precious. If your daughter is not able to cope don't send her until she is older.

Tinpin I like your style from a Scouter with over 34 years too !

My experience of brownies and these sleep overs is that if can be difficult to judge when your DD is ready. My DD is confident but we've still given them a miss so far. I did feel that the leaders reacted as if maybe we weren't making enough effort but I stuck to what instinctively felt right for my DD. It's fine to speak to the Brown Owl and see what happened in order to get a view on whether on reflection it's a bit too early for her to go on these events.

I can completely imagine my 7yo dd1 being like this - she's also a 'goody goody' with a tendency to tizz if out of her routine.

I'd expect Brown Owl to be fairly brisk with her if there was nothing actually wrong, & it wasn't the first time she'd been out of bed & weepy. Best thing all round if she's firmly told to go to bed & then gets some sleep ready for the next day's activities.

I'm a secondary school teacher & regularly organise overnighters for 11yo students. I know they're a bit older - but honestly, 3-4 hours sleep for supervising staff is a good night, & we only get that much by being Quite Firm.

I am a brownie leader not brown owl and I did not let my own daughter go on pack holiday until I could attend too because at 7 she was not ready to go alone. There are always minor hiccups with the girls but generally overall they go home chock full of good memories. Please only approach this from the point of view of seeing if your daughter is ready for these over nights. Everyone does their best with the girls in my experience or you don't bother getting involved but no one is perfect.

I appreciate that the teenage section leaders comforted her (and I intend to thank them personally) but I do think Brown Owl would have been more of a mother figure and a cuddle from her might have helped more.

But Brown Owl isn't her mother and needs to be very careful where cuddles are concerned. I agree that you need to get the other side of the story. I would guess that your DD wanted more comfort than Brown Owl was prepared to give but that may reflect her professionalism rather than an uncaring attitude.

As a Brownie leader myself I can wholly empathise with those leaders above saying that it is exasperating when a child repeatedly comes crying/complaining about little things, and can result in them finally being told to just go to bed.

Has your dd told you what these "several" things were that she went to brown owl crying about? If it was as other have suggested things like X is doing this or Y is doing that then I think you are better to not say anything as telling tales does get highly irritating on camp, if it was more serious then I would certainly ask the leader for her side but as someone up thread said please do not go in all guns blazing, mention that your dd was upset and explain that you are sure there is more to it and could she elaborate.

In terms of your expectations for cuddles etc, as someone else has said, technically this is against the law and we can be accused and prosecuted for child abuse. We cover this in my area on the health for, by asking for signed permission to administer tlc if required, but others may take a more stringent view on this.

At 7 and tired she may just have taken it the wrong way, I doubt very much it was intended to cause upset, more likely just to get your dd to stay in bed and probably wasn't said as harshly as you think. I have certainly told my girls previously that I don't want to hear any more nonsense from them when they are up and down complaining about it being too dark, not dark enough, too much noise, x doing this, y doing that...any excuse to get out of bed frankly.

Please try not to get too wound up.

I am with babyhmummy. Our Brown Owl is a lovely person, but is a no nonsense, brusque Yorkshire woman. This you are fine, go to bed thing is part of them being away from home, learning independence. You do no one any favours by making a big fuss.

I'm quite surprised by some of the replies. Sounds like that owl lady might have been a bit of an unsympathetic cow. If someone had said that to me at 7 I'd have been very upset. Not sure that's an appropriate thing to say to a 7 year old kid away from home.

Reading babyhmummy01 does sort of put it into perspective I suppoe.

My stepmom is a brown owl of brownies and wouldn't dream of doing that to a homesick child.
My sister is also snowy owl at the same brownies. She wouldn't do thy either. I do wonder if she was maybe the 10th child to have gone in crying

I was going to reply but then I read babyhmummy so I won't bother. Because she said it all.

-should say that I am also a Brownie Assistant leader

Yes, me too.

I help run a Brownie pack and have been involved in many pack holidays. Most residentials involve some home sickness, and we do get perceived as giving tough love by the girls, but they nearly always love the experience of going away and want to repeat it.

We find the best way of dealing with homesickness is to play it down. If they want to phone home, we tell them in the morning (we generally don't get a request in the morning). If we "indulge" the girls, it tends to feed it and it can spread to other girls. We often use the young leaders as a sympathetic ear- they tend to be very good at it! We're not trying to be mean or unsupportive, we're trying to keep it toned down, and manage a large number of girls. Bedtime is the hardest time of day- there can be a lot of interruptions from the girls for various reasons, and being tired, the girls can get wound up with each other easily.

At the end of the day, we're exhausted from setting up, running the activities and will be staying for 2-3 hours after the last girl leaves to make sure the venue is scrubbed immaculately.

We do listen to parents and talk to them about issues that have arisen, but sometimes we do get parents being overly concerned following a very heavily edited story over a very trivial event (shudders at the memory of the nibbled apple upset)

I should prob mention I.am a brown owl.

How about as you cba to spend your leisure time that way, you show a bit more gratitude to people who give up their free time for your DDs entertainment and your own convenience.

Have you thanked brown owl for the holiday and the time she spent with your DD? Less complaining sand more gratitude is the way to go, or entertain your DD yourself.

::applauds MrsMook::

spot on FUZZYSMOUT

I've read this thread with interest. My 8yr old DD went on her first pack holiday at the end of May for 3 nights. She's a fairly outgoing child but her close friends weren't going so I fretted all weekend worrying about her, but hoping for a good outcome. She was most upset disgusted that she'd had to clean the leaders loo but apart from that had an absolute ball. Walked 10 miles when she whinges at me for having to walk the length of herself. Her 'upset' at having to clean the loo was well worth the overall outcome, and tbh, I'm sure she whinged to brown owl about having to clean the loo and received a less than sympathetic response to her protests. It's all character building isn't it?

I cannot thank my DD's brown owl enough for the fantastic experience she's had. To do all that, with no reward, while sacrificing her own free time to make this happen? Bloody marvellous she is!

A curiously defence attitude from a lot of posters here, all starting from the assumption that the OP's daughter is lying. Which is quite a worrying approach to take, in my view.

Of course it's possible the DD is exaggerating. It's also possible the Brown Owl isn't a very nice person. Not everyone who volunteers to lead a Brownie pack is a delightful empathic person, any more than all midwives are kind, all teachers are fair or all laywers are incorruptible.

My DDs Brownies has hugs as one of the medicines we can opt out of being given to our daughter's on the medical form.

I have always found Brownie trips far less worrying than school ones, and the leaders cope with the girls much better.

I did read it OP that your DD had kept going in to the leaders to moan about stuff happening, so some tough love going on; not a homesick mite being told to go away.

Really? I don't see anyone accusing the girl of lying, but several have suggested (rightly I think) that a 7 year old's perception and interpretation of the situation is likely to be different from an adult's. And maybe Brown Owl is not an empathetic person. But maybe she's an unempathetic person with a lot of experience in how to (and how not to) encourage a group of girls to settle down for the night and get some sleep.

Yes. Another Owl here.