We encourage children in our cafe BUT

[childfriendlycafeowner]

I hope you don't mind us asking any readers for their opinion on child behaviour in public places.

We run a small cafe in a small town, and we love doing it (opened up 4 months ago). The previous owners did not encourage children and families, we do, we bought high chairs and do what we can to make families feel welcome. But today two girls came in with a baby and a toddler, my guess is the toddler was 2. From the moment she arrived the screamed, not crying because she was upset but screaming because I guess she liked the sound of her own voice. We made comments to the mum in the hope she would take the hint that the child was disturbing all the other customers but her comment was "she is a little tinker isn't she" The other customers threw their food and drinks down their necks and left as quickly as they could, some complaining as they left. She did go quiet for a little while but she was screaming for probably at least half of the 1 hour plus that she was in the cafe.

When the lady came to pay we said to the lady that we are very sorry but unless she can stop her little girl disturbing all our other customers and driving them away perhaps she could sit in our outside seating area with her or not come in. We felt terrible to say this but it really was a terrible din that upset many people.

Are we being reasonable or unreasonable. Would you tolerate your child no matter how young being so disruptive to other people in public

[hazeyjane]

brdgrl, did you even read my post? How do you think children with sn cope when they go to sn groups or schools?

Your examples are, I think a completely different issue.

[tabulahrasa]

Basically - there's a difference between causing pain or distress and simply stopping you contemplating your scone in silence.

[JessicaBeatriceFletcher]

Gobby - you have just proved my point by jumping on what I have said and taken it to the nth degree! The thread was set up about noise and parenting in a café. Now it has become a debate almost exclusively about SN vs non-SN in cafés, schools, on buses, life in general. And the way some people are speaking to each other is, at times, hurtful and unpleasant.

[brdgrl]

it's quite a leap to imagine that the parents of children with SN are not inconvenienced by their child. It's also interesting that you assume that the rest of the public do not inconvenience them or their children.

Not at all what I said.

And the child who finds noise difficult to cope with may find all manner of environmental noises difficult. But you are only interested in the screaming because it also inconvenienced you.
No, I am pointing out that there are two children with special needs, in that scenario, and both cannot, logically, have their need accommodated. In which case, the one who is actively making a disruption may not be able to have their need accommodate at the the cost to the one who is a passive recipient of the disruption. I am interested in the screaming because it is an activity which prevents others from reasonable use.

[JessicaBeatriceFletcher]

Tab - indeed. And some people with hearing issues would find a child screaming at high pitch non-stop for half an hour causing them pain and distress

[ArbitraryUsername]

Maybe it isn't a zero sum game...

[tabulahrasa]

'And some people with hearing issues would find a child screaming at high pitch non-stop for half an hour causing them pain and distress'

Of course they would, but if that's your child are you supposed to avoid going in a cafe because somebody might have a hearing issue? Or do you gauge reactions and hope that you would notice pain or distress as different from disapproval?

[GobbySadcase]

My child would find your child's eating noises traumatic.
I think you should leave.

Only you'd think why should we, it's something he can't help.

Precisely.

[Lambsie]

My son who is severely disabled ( and makes plenty of his own noise) finds screaming, squealing and crying noises very distressing and will slap, scratch and bite himself if he hears this sort of noise. I would never expect a disabled child who cannot help making the noise to leave because of it. I would take my son either outside or elsewhere.

[brdgrl]

if that's your child are you supposed to avoid going in a cafe because somebody might have a hearing issue? Or do you gauge reactions and hope that you would notice pain or distress as different from disapproval?

tab, I haven?t said, anywhere, and I don?t believe, that parents of children with disabilities should stay at home and never go to cafes. On the other hand, I do believe that the option of leaving a café can?t be taken off the table by responsible and considerate people, and I object ? quite explicitly ? to the posters who have basically said that they would not take their kids out regardless of the impact on others. So in your post above, I think the key point is the second half of your question. If you do gauge reactions, and see that your child?s actions are causing distress for those around you, do you do anything?

I think most people only ask that you would.

[JessicaBeatriceFletcher]

My upstairs neighbours are making my life hell. They play loud music at all hours of day and night. I own my flat, they rent. I expect some noise, I don't expect silence. I do expect a certain amount of reasonableness and not total selfishness that they can do anything they want as and when it suits them no matter what the consequences to others. There are 4 maisonettes in our block and the 3 other residents are at their wits' end. We've had disrupted sleep and often can't even stay in our own flats because of the noise they make.

This is unacceptable behaviour, surely? We have complained to them, politely. We have complained to the landlord, politely. We are now having to go to the council environmental health.

Now, are people saying that if the upstairs residents had some social impairment or special needs that meant they couldn't help their behaviour, the rest of us should just accept that our lives have to be ruined?

I think that would NOT be so. But the way some people are posting on here, they ARE coming across as "no matter what noise or nuisance someone is making, if they can't help it, tough".

OK, I am taking it to an extreme, obviously (although our lives are being made hell at present), but I can see why some people are posting what they are because SOME posters have basically said TOUGH, no matter what. They ask for tolerance - QUITE RIGHTLY - but it still must work BOTH WAYS at times.

[salsmum]

We sometimes go for a Sunday lunch in one of those 'pub/restaurant' places and it really hacks me off big time when parents make their children behave while THEY'RE enjoying their meal and then afterwards the kids run riot while the parents get wasted relax with a few bottles of wine! these days there are coloring books etc that pub restaurants supply to keep kids busy and/or swings etc..in family gardens..I just find it irritating,lazy parenting. One time I even had a boy of about 5 hanging off the back of my chair while we ate it was only when I moved my chair forward under the table and heard a dropping sound that the parents took notice . My kids are older now but from an early age they ate out and knew how to behave in public places....YWNBU I personally hate it when parents let their kids scream just because they can and the child isn't hurt/scared/has SN, they should be made aware that others find it incredibly irritating (esp when they are eating).

[HelenMumsnet]

Morning.

First of all, huge apologies that we have not posted on this thread in any length before today. We definitely should have done.

What we should have done - and are doing now - is make it very clear for those who don't know already that we will remove posts on this thread (and elsewhere on the boards, where they are reported to us) that are clearly disablist in tone and intent.

We have no wish to censor discussion about children's cafes but we regard posts that suggest children with special needs should not be allowed in/should be removed from cafes as disablist.

From what we have seen of this thread so far (and we're still catching up with it), it's clear that our upcoming This Is My Child campaign has much to do in terms of raising awareness and extending tolerance of children with special needs.

[JessicaBeatriceFletcher]

Before I get pounced on, of course what I describe is NOT the same as half hour screaming child. I am not comparing that. I am using it to point out that some people on the thread seem to be SO ingrained that ANY noise is should be permitted and other people put up with it no matter what.

[MaryKatharine]

I think it's interesting for us to be saying that parents of disabled children whose issues are extreme noise sensitivity and sensory based should be forced to stay at home as the world at large cant accommodate them. Then we're saying that the world at large should accommodate children with SN whose additional needs mean they cannot help but be noisy.

That's kind of an impasse then, is it not? If both are in the same environment whose needs are to be accommodated?

[ArbitraryUsername]

But it doesn't have to be a zero sum game.

Nor do we need to okay parents of children with SN off against each other.

It's about flexibility, tolerance and community spirit. As tab has pointed our several times it is possible that the two SN families could assess the situation at hand and respond accordingly.

[HelenMumsnet]

@GobbySadcase

Some of the posters here should be mindful of 'this is my child'.

Mind you, with HQ decreeing unintentional disablism acceptable then the whole campaign starts to look a little brittle.

So does that mean I can say " insert ethnic minority of choice shouldn't be in a cafe as they smell" as long as I don't intend to offend?

Ok that would make me a complete twat, but that's no different to the 'unintentional' disablists on here. Not that I believe it's unintentional for a second.

Again, our apologies on this one. We should not have sent any mails saying, or implying, that unintentional disablism was OK.

It's obviously not.

[MaryKatharine]

Just to be clear, I'm not suggesting we, as society, shouldn't accommodate noisy children who have SN. I think disability laws are there not to promote equality but fairness. Disabled parking bays being larger is a case in point. I just think its all very complex and as a mum who is new to the world of SN, I'm finding the whole them and us thing very sad.

[Eyesunderarock]

Headphones.
I've had children in class that have needed noise-blocking headphones to cope with what are average noise levels. DS uses his iPod and proper headphones to cope when on the tube and such.
Of course to many he just looks like a menacing, glowering antisocial teenager, but that's how he copes with extreme noise sensitivity,
They work in cafes too.

[HelenMumsnet]

@ArbitraryUsername

But it doesn't have to be a zero sum game.

Nor do we need to okay parents of children with SN off against each other.

It's about flexibility, tolerance and community spirit. As tab has pointed our several times it is possible that the two SN families could assess the situation at hand and respond accordingly.

Exactly. We would also hope that those near/around the SN families in question would also show flexibility, tolerance and community spirit.

That's what our This is My Child campaign is aiming to encourage.

[devientenigma]

Headphones still don't stop the noise the child can make being a problem or any other issues the child may have, referring to what I post earlier.

[MaryKatharine]

But, Helen and Arb, I am a parent of a child with SN. That doesn't mean I think there are easy answers to it all. I'm not liking the whole to tribes thing and I don't want to go through the rest of my life thinking I now have to be a member of that team rather than that team.