We encourage children in our cafe BUT

[childfriendlycafeowner]

I hope you don't mind us asking any readers for their opinion on child behaviour in public places.

We run a small cafe in a small town, and we love doing it (opened up 4 months ago). The previous owners did not encourage children and families, we do, we bought high chairs and do what we can to make families feel welcome. But today two girls came in with a baby and a toddler, my guess is the toddler was 2. From the moment she arrived the screamed, not crying because she was upset but screaming because I guess she liked the sound of her own voice. We made comments to the mum in the hope she would take the hint that the child was disturbing all the other customers but her comment was "she is a little tinker isn't she" The other customers threw their food and drinks down their necks and left as quickly as they could, some complaining as they left. She did go quiet for a little while but she was screaming for probably at least half of the 1 hour plus that she was in the cafe.

When the lady came to pay we said to the lady that we are very sorry but unless she can stop her little girl disturbing all our other customers and driving them away perhaps she could sit in our outside seating area with her or not come in. We felt terrible to say this but it really was a terrible din that upset many people.

Are we being reasonable or unreasonable. Would you tolerate your child no matter how young being so disruptive to other people in public

[EllenJanesthickerknickers]

WouldBeHarrietVane, that would be a truly child and SN friendly place. Thank you.

[EllenJanesthickerknickers]

Talking like the SALT recommends is so much like performance parenting. I used to OWL away and never get a response, it was very embarrassing.

[exoticfruits]

Parents with children with SN must have to get used to working around situations. I have taught screechers and if they decide to screech at story time I don't say to 29children 'sorry I can't do a story, you won't hear'- the TA finds the screeching DC an alternative activity or takes them out. They bring them back if they stop. The next day the same DC may sit and listen- they may not - next week they may, next year they may listen. They may never listen if no one tries .
After I went to bed it did become different, AhouseinScotland and Mimishimi and don'tlaugh made very sensible, calming posts.
I am gratified that at least you are not accusing me if saying DCs with SN should stay at home.

[ArbitraryUsername]

Thing is exotic, full and frank disclosure to anyone who looks funny at you wouldn't necessarily make any difference. Parents are used to working round, but you (as an outsider) don't know what's going on in their lives or how they are working round at any particular moment.

[tabulahrasa]

'Parents with children with SN must have to get used to working around situations.'

Yes...but they don't have training, they don't have support staff - statistically a disabled child is way more likely to be being brought up by a single parent living in poverty on anti-depressants than any other child because of the strain that having a child with a disability causes.

When that is your reality even the best of parents struggles and parents with a child with a disability aren't some unique breed of super parent, they run the full range from bad to amazing just like every other parent - it's just that they have more to contend with.

[EllenJanesthickerknickers]

I take exception to that, tab! I am an exceptional parent. Oh yes, in the single parent camp these days as exH found it all too hard to deal with.

[JJXM]

If someone says something about my child running around, I just say he's autistic - I'm not ashamed of his dx.

I feel sorry for those who are ignorant enough to think ASD is just a naughty child but I also feel they are fortunate because they have never experienced the hardship, we face every day.

I don't know why this thread has descended into mud slinging and those with children with SN vs those without. The only way through this is education and tolerance.

Isn't it hard enough being a mother to any child without mothers attacking mothers?

[tabulahrasa]

'I take exception to that, tab! I am an exceptional parent.'

lol, you may well be, but you didn't magically become one just because you had a child with an SN.

I think sometimes that people don't realize that parents don't automatically get help or parenting support with a diagnosis...you take your child to see medical professionals because there's an issue, they tell you what the issue is called and give you a nice letter saying that and for many parents, that's it, job done as far as any intervention is concerned.

[exoticfruits]

Is I have to pick my story to suit one child whenI actually need a story to fit my topic/theme?
Much better for the TA to remove with a train book.

[EllenJanesthickerknickers]

Of course you are right, tab. And parents if DC with SN aren't one homogenous mass either. We have different ways of dealing with our DC and different levels of embarrassment. My DS's stims don't bother me at all, I'm proud of him and happy to show him off to the world. He's amazing. And even if I'm the only one who sees that, I still won't stop taking him out and about in public. It's good for him, it's good for me, it's good for his brothers and I personally think it's good for society in general to normalise disability. It's just another facet of life's rich pageant.

[EllenJanesthickerknickers]

Exotic, it's often the case that the most vulnerable members of the class are the ones who get taught by the least qualified member of staff. True inclusion shouldn't mean that DC with SN are withdrawn so regularly for the convenience of the teacher. If children with SN can't learn in MS classes then the teaching should change so that all DC can learn.

Anyway, that's probably a topic for another day. I've got to go to work to support a DC with ASD and PDA now.

[tabulahrasa]

'Is I have to pick my story to suit one child whenI actually need a story to fit my topic/theme? hmm
Much better for the TA to remove with a train book.'

So, as a trained professional, you are unable to both meet the needs of a child with an SN and the other children in an environment actually set up for and aiming for inclusion rather than integration or in fact segregation (which is what I'd consider removing a child from a class to do a separate activity purely because you can't engage them to be) but you'd happily criticize a parent not managing to do the same in a harder environment?

[SusanneLinder]

Yes...but they don't have training, they don't have support staff - statistically a disabled child is way more likely to be being brought up by a single parent living in poverty on anti-depressants than any other child because of the strain that having a child with a disability causes.

What the actual fuck? Really?

I have a disabled child. I know many parents of disabled children. None of us are single parents on benefits.What a sweeping statement!

I refer back to a previous Prime Minister who stated "there are lies,damn lies, and statistics

[FrenchJunebug]

YANBU

If my 2-year old was doing this I would tell him to stop and if not leave the place. It has nothing to do with being child tolerant but teaching our children how to live in society and be respectful of others. That can be taught from 2!

[hazeyjane]

We have exactly that situation with ds at preschool atm, he cannot cope with circle time, because it starts with a quiet register, and then a story, and then finishes with a song. Ds does 2 sessions a week, and has not managed a circle time yet, as he struggles with the sudden silence (he lies down and starts headbanging and screaming and so i have to take him out). One of his ieps is to stay for 5 minutes of circle time, and so I and his 1-1 suggested that they could start with a makaton signed song, which ds would be able to cope with, and would encourage him into the idea of sitting with the other children. But the preschool leader has said that they have always done - register, story song, and is unwilling to change it. So now we have to have a meeting about it, it should all be so much simpler.

As for the op, I don't think I have been anything but reasonable.

I think the op was unreasonable because I don't think a child screeching with happiness for half an hour is that big a deal or lazy parenting.

I don't think it should matter if a discussion about children with sn occurs within a thread about a situation which happens frequently for parent's of children with sn.

Just because some parents are happy to take their child with sn out, does not mean that this is the case for all parents - not all children with sn have the same issues, and everyone has different lives and families.

[ArbitraryUsername]

To be fair, the difficulties surrounding inclusion aren't necessarily 'poor teaching' or whatever. Teachers are often pulled in several different directions at once by contradictory policy mandates towards, for example, inclusion and flexibility and ever more standardised and content-laden curricula combined with the tyranny of 'attainment' in governmental terms. And teacher training is really not great on SN.

[EllenJanesthickerknickers]

Suzanne, I also know many parents of DC with SN. Most are still married, but a larger than average proportion are working in low paid part time jobs to fit around school hours as getting after school care and holiday care is nigh on impossible. Just because your experience is different doesn't mean that the statistics are wrong.

[ArbitraryUsername]

SuzanneLindor: I'm not sure you understand what statistically means. It tells you something about the chance relative to the population as a whole; but I'm not X isn't a reasonable response to it.

I a statistically more likely to die in a car crash than in an aeroplane accident. I haven't done either.