We encourage children in our cafe BUT

[childfriendlycafeowner]

I hope you don't mind us asking any readers for their opinion on child behaviour in public places.

We run a small cafe in a small town, and we love doing it (opened up 4 months ago). The previous owners did not encourage children and families, we do, we bought high chairs and do what we can to make families feel welcome. But today two girls came in with a baby and a toddler, my guess is the toddler was 2. From the moment she arrived the screamed, not crying because she was upset but screaming because I guess she liked the sound of her own voice. We made comments to the mum in the hope she would take the hint that the child was disturbing all the other customers but her comment was "she is a little tinker isn't she" The other customers threw their food and drinks down their necks and left as quickly as they could, some complaining as they left. She did go quiet for a little while but she was screaming for probably at least half of the 1 hour plus that she was in the cafe.

When the lady came to pay we said to the lady that we are very sorry but unless she can stop her little girl disturbing all our other customers and driving them away perhaps she could sit in our outside seating area with her or not come in. We felt terrible to say this but it really was a terrible din that upset many people.

Are we being reasonable or unreasonable. Would you tolerate your child no matter how young being so disruptive to other people in public

where did i say that i had my head bitten off?

Mary some posters do bite heads of on here if you say something the wrong way round or if you refer to a child they say it has to be a child with sn as that is there world and normal to them.

Here.

where did I say that I had my head bitten off?

that refers to some posters bite head of if you say something the wrong way round - didn't a poster get something the wrong way round and get her head bitten off?

egg you are right maybe she did have SN

but that was my point (I think?) earlier - if it is not obvious that a child has SN while displaying "disturbing" (for want of a better word!) I believe that people are more likely to assume that it is a naughty kid rather than a SN kid!

do you understand why I say that?

and that assumption is why parents of SN children must feel shit when being in a situation like that - because there's precious fuck all they can do to stop that behaviour!

but as people have mentioned upthread -and I agree- it would be reasonable to think that parents of SN children will expect their children to behave differently from what is an avarage/usual toddler tantrum and will have some ways of tackling or diffusing the situation.

in OP's description the mother seemed to have been ignoring the behaviour (and the child!) which is not acceptable whether the child has SN or not!

and I think that is the whole point!

I don't think I can contribute any more or explain my opinion any better.

Well, you wrote about SN children about 5 times in one post, and I asked you whether you meant DC with SN, and I said having a DC with SN was normal and relevant to me in response to another of your posts...

meant to say displaying "disturbing"....behaviour

Whether a child has Sn or not is not relevant, ALL children should be welcome anywhere.....however, if a child, any child, is continually screeching, screaming etc purely because they like the sound of their own voice, in a place where people are trying to enjoy a meal, then surely the parents should attempt to quieter them down. Isnt that just basic good manners?

And yes, I totally get that some children with Sn cannot be quietened down and that is a completely different scenario to a child screaming and the mother sitting there not giving a toss about anyone else around her.

EllenJane
I asked this question
where did I say that I had my head bitten off?

because I don't think I have said I got my head bitten off

Thing is, the OP would have no way of knowing whether the child had SN or not, unless the mother felt she wanted to tell her. The mother may be utterly fed up with having to explain her child's condition an behaviour to everyone and anyone, and have chosen to reply with 'oh, she's a little tinker' instead.

And what others' perceive as 'doing nothing' may in fact be the best thing for a parent to do. Intervening and trying to stop the child might make everything worse. The important thing is that you cannot actually know what's going on in other people's lives, particularly not just from seeing them across a cafe.

In which case, it's best not to proceed straight to giving yourself a judgey-pants wedgie but AIBU would be amazingly quiet if people didn't do that.

Mary some posters do bite heads of on here if you say something the wrong way round or if you refer to a child they say it has to be a child with sn as that is there world and normal to them.

So, referring to this post of yours, when you, ivykaty, got something 'the wrong way round' and you were referring to my post Sorry, ivykaty, but my DC does have SN, so for me, it's just normal and relevant. Not out of context. which was directed at you again, strangely enough I read your post as referring to yourself.

So sorry if you meant some other unnamed poster had had their head bitten off by 'some posters.'

ArbitraryUsername, great post. For some DC it's much better to ignore unwanted behaviour, so long as it's not actually dangerous.

I read this thread earlier this week and didn't reply. We were at lunch today with in laws. V nice restaurant. My ds has needs, more physical than intellectual, he kicked off, I left with him as he was unbearable to listen to for me and I'm his mother, no way was I going to ruin everyone else's lunch. I swapped with DH so we could eat, we left as fast as possible. Why why why would I expect anyone else who's not his parent to put up with that? I wouldn't, is the short answer.

exactly. thank you

But if that would mean you could never go out to a café or restaurant? Because your DC always drools or thrashes or screeches?

"For some DC it's much better to ignore unwanted behaviour, so long as it's not actually dangerous"

It's certainly not better for call the other customers, nor the person who is trying to earn a living from running the Cafe.

Again, lazyjaney, if that means you could never go out to a café or restaurant? Because other customers couldn't show some tolerance for 1/2 hour out of their lives?

Also, as a parent of a child with sn, I am responsible for his behaviour/reactions in public, including restaurants. I can't control his behaviour, but I can control my reaction to it. I would very much like my son to learn how to eat in public, as his two older siblings have done, while I accept he is sn I do not accept that all paying customers in public have to tolerate his behaviour while learning how to do. If he kicks off, one if us takes him and other eats, then swaps. When he's calm we make the most of it and positively reinforce his reactions. I can't and won't see this as a bad thing.

No, but I'm a single parent these days. Having a DC with SN can put a lot of strain on a marriage and my exH buggered off. I don't have the luxury of taking it in turns. Of course I try to control my DS's behaviour, but if he screeches or flaps it's usually in excitement. I will not hide him away because other people find his behaviour distasteful.

Ellen, are you as "tolerant" of other adults who make a public place un-usable or unpleasant for your child, through their uninhibited behaviour?

We are not hiding anyone away. Nor am I always with DH. I can't always take it in turns.
I'm delighted with my ds, I love his company, I adore his foibles. But I do not and will not expect anyone in a restaurant other than his family to tolerate his ear splitting shrieks, his projectile vomiting and his liquid stools. Why should I? Why should they?
I will prepare him much as possible for these outings, peg feed before hand, change nappy, nap done. If it all goes tits up, I will remove him. I'm not hiding him anywhere, and I resent your implication that I am.

Dontlaugh, sorry if you thought I was implying that. I didn't mean that at all. You must deal with your DS in whatever way makes you feel comfortable, of course. I am comfortable in allowing my DS to screech and flap even if that disturbs others, otherwise he, his brothers and I would never get to go out.

Brdgrl, luckily that is just your opinion. The law, however, does allow that for those with disabilities reasonable adjustments must be made to ensure that there is an even playing field. You may be surprised to learn that equality doesn't mean treating everybody the same, it means giving everyone an equal chance. Half an hour out of your life is a reasonable adjustment. It's every minute of mine, not just half an hour. Please show some compassion and tolerance.

'Because other customers couldn't show some tolerance for 1/2 hour out of their lives?
Flip that around. Because other customers couldn't show some respect for others for 1/2 hour out of their lives?'

But it's not half an hour out of your life if you have a child with an SN...that is your life, always.

You can't go to supermarkets because supermarkets are quite clearly chambers of torture and must be screamed at until they go away, the park's out because your DC is obsessed with the swings and has no idea about sharing or turntaking and will have a meltdown when moved off it so your options are either to annoy other users by not letting their child on or to annoy other users by the noise your DC will make when you don't let them swing for 3 hours, softplay has similar issues. The swimming pool is no good because your child gets excited makes a lot of noise and splashes water everywhere - which other people object to.

you try your hardest not to tell people about your DC's diagnosis because they either tell you that all children do that completely minimizing the problems you're facing, or start telling you about the overdiagnosis of conditions 'like that' with the implication that it's an imaginary condition or that children still need to learn...as if that hadn't occurred to you and you weren't daily trying to get just a tiny bit of progress with something that other children pick up as easily as breathing.

You can hear perfectly well, so those people tutting at your perceived ineffectual parenting? You hear them all...everywhere you go, every day.

Most parents do take into account other people and try their best to show respect for them by leaving yet another meal and accepting that their child's SN rules out lots of things that other parents don't even think twice about.

So yes actually, sometimes those parent's rights to have their child in a cafe should trump others' to eat in a quiet environment.