We encourage children in our cafe BUT

[childfriendlycafeowner]

I hope you don't mind us asking any readers for their opinion on child behaviour in public places.

We run a small cafe in a small town, and we love doing it (opened up 4 months ago). The previous owners did not encourage children and families, we do, we bought high chairs and do what we can to make families feel welcome. But today two girls came in with a baby and a toddler, my guess is the toddler was 2. From the moment she arrived the screamed, not crying because she was upset but screaming because I guess she liked the sound of her own voice. We made comments to the mum in the hope she would take the hint that the child was disturbing all the other customers but her comment was "she is a little tinker isn't she" The other customers threw their food and drinks down their necks and left as quickly as they could, some complaining as they left. She did go quiet for a little while but she was screaming for probably at least half of the 1 hour plus that she was in the cafe.

When the lady came to pay we said to the lady that we are very sorry but unless she can stop her little girl disturbing all our other customers and driving them away perhaps she could sit in our outside seating area with her or not come in. We felt terrible to say this but it really was a terrible din that upset many people.

Are we being reasonable or unreasonable. Would you tolerate your child no matter how young being so disruptive to other people in public

UANBU I cannot bear kids screaming for the sheer fun of it. My 3 kids don't do it because I won't tolerate it. I certainly wouldn't expect anyone else to tolerate it either. Some parents are just ignorant.

It would a kinder, more tolerant society if people socialised their DCs and didn't bring them up to think that only they mattered.

A 2yr old is old enough to understand you don't screech in cafes.

The term mouth breathers on this thread was used to insult people who who eat at carveries.

Or at least you don't screech in cafes merely because you happen to like screeching! You let them screech as loudly as possible first and then stop as you go in.

Exotic, the thread has moved on slightly. I would love to 'socialise' my DS2, but his ASD DX tends to make that rather tricky.

wtf is a mouth breather? i love a good toby and HATE poncey restaurants. the best bit if i get dragged to one is some old bird with a snooty look on her face holding her knife incorrectly :-D i like a good plate of food and hate pretentious good joints

*food

old bird nice

I don't happen to like the way it moved on- I think OP had nothing to do with SN -and have just scanned over 'mouth breathers' - I really don't want to know.

There are some truly charming people in this world. A few on here, it seems.

YABU. You should have dealt with it earlier rather than adding a 'by the way' as they were leaving, giving the mother no chance to rectify it.

Of course the child's behaviour was unacceptable, but you should have addressed it. I think you need to learn to be more assertive as you may have other problems with customers.

I think OP had nothing to do with SN

I agree. There is nothing to suggest that the OP's dilemma was a result of anything but the mother's apathy. I don't much care for the implication that people who object to sustained toddler screaming when they go out to eat are intolerant at best and disablist at worst.

Good on you sooty

I don't care much for the implication that those who state that there is a possibility of special needs are professionally offended.
Guess we all have different lives, eh?

The mother's reaction indicated that there was unlikely to be a SN issue. I've made it clear that I object simply to lazy parenting, as have you, Dawndonna

I personally couldn't give a crap if a child is making noise in a cafe, for whatever reason, and would think badly of a cafe owner acting in the way the op did. I also don't think a child making happy screamy noises for half an hour whilst playing with toys the mother bought, is 'lazy parenting'. But that is just my opinion, and I really don't think that people who think otherwise are 'disabilist twats'

However, the thread moved on, because the issue arose from people like me saying, 'do you know my child sometimes makes noises in cafes, and it is part of their conditon, I would hate for this to happen to me.'

A discussion of this point ensued, during the course of which some people did make disabilist remarks, and hence may have acted like 'disabilist twats'.

Fucking hell. Really, fucking fucking hell. The turn this thread has taken is shambolic.

It's nice to see disablism is alive and well on MN still.

I am sorry that all of you who have SN DC have had to have this shit spouted at you.

Of course, people's reactions to toddler screeching vary. However, according to the OP, the other customers objected, so I'm assuming it did affect people's enjoyment of their meal. I would have thought that when the mother was spoken to she'd have been a bit more proactive than "She is a little tinker isn't she".

I would have thought a child-friendly cafe would welcome children. All children. Not just quiet, non-SN children.

Yes, children should learn that you don't scream/shout/make too much noise in cafes. Some children cannot learn that. If you make this parent sit outside in future, are you going to ask everyone with tourettes to sit outside? Everyone with an annoying laugh? Everyone with a child with ASD who cannot keep themselves quiet in this situation? Where do you draw the line?

I seem to have diverted the threat off on to a love or hate of Toby Carveries I do think that they don't give enough meat though.

My point is that I don't go out without DH because I don't want to destroy other people's dining experiences. With him there, we can take one child each and manage the situation. When my child is screaming, I find it embarrassing because I am trying to be considerate to the other patrons. My DS's growling drives us to distraction and we are used to it.

But perhaps if parents of children without SN could control their children whilst out in public - then it would be obvious to every one that children having meltdowns are SN.

The OP never said anything about not wanting to accommodate people/children with SN.

And for clarity, I have not at any point denied parents' right to take children with SN out to public places.

Actually I found the Toby Cavery unmanageable with my ds who is disabled. I could not leave him at the table whilst I got the food as he is a Bolter. I have to take him with me to the Cavery counter which made it extremely difficult to hold the plates as I had to hold his hand. This meant he had one hand free to touch the food! I had to get my dd to take her plate back to the table and then come and get ds and take him to table. She is only half his size so this is a big task for her. It was very busy so we could not keep queuing multiple times. It is all a bit of a blur and a nightmare we won't go back. We stick to cafes with waitresses/waiters.

Sorry got carried away reliving the nightmare - everyone seemed to be staring at us as well. I would not have really noticed if ds had screamed for half an hour!

YANBU. There is no need to be rude-friendly. Family friendly is another thing...

Tough one. I am blessed to have a 23-month-old DS who is seriously into food, going out to restaurants, smiling at the waiters etc. At a restaurantwhether a pub or really nice placehe's either eating, dipping his bread in olive oil or playing with some crayons. He has zero interest in running around and causing mayhem.

When he was an infant, he had horrific colic for close to a year. I had visions of meeting friends for Sunday brunch every weekend, but it just never happened. I couldn't imagine subjecting people in a restaurant to his unending screams, even if it was a child-friendly place. I don't know if I'd do things differently with DC2, but I am the kind of person that doesn't like to draw too much attention to myself, especially in a situation that would probably be construed by the majority as negative.

There is nothing in the OP to suggest that this child has SN. My DC4 is 2yrs and has some developmental issues. Most parents of SN kids that I know have strategies in place to deal, as much as possible, with meltdowns or prolonged screaming. So if this mother was just ignoring the half hour worth of screaming then, IME, it's unlikely her child had any SN.

I think when they're 2 or 3 is a difficult time because the behaviour can seem so ambiguous. It's often difficult to tell the difference between a child with additional needs and one who is just playing up. So I am a bit more understanding of strangers assuming that SN specific behaviour is down to a naughty child. By the time a child is 5, it is often startlingly obvious that the child in question has additional needs and I know my friend with a 7yr old with Asd gets far fewer tuts than the mum at our SN playgroup whose 2.5yr old has just been diagnosed. I believe Fanjos DD is around 7yrs (maybe wrong) so I'm gobsmacked that the woman in the cafe refused to allow her to jump the queue unless of course, the woman herself had good reason such as being diabetic and needing to eat now.

This thread has reminded me of the one about 5yrs ago regarding the woman with Tourette's who worked at M&S. The OP in that case came on to complain and say the lady in question should not be allowed to have customer contact. Most people on there agreed. At the time I only had NT children but even I could see the logic of simply explaining to my children that the woman was shouting, not to be rude but because she had a disability.