We encourage children in our cafe BUT

[childfriendlycafeowner]

I hope you don't mind us asking any readers for their opinion on child behaviour in public places.

We run a small cafe in a small town, and we love doing it (opened up 4 months ago). The previous owners did not encourage children and families, we do, we bought high chairs and do what we can to make families feel welcome. But today two girls came in with a baby and a toddler, my guess is the toddler was 2. From the moment she arrived the screamed, not crying because she was upset but screaming because I guess she liked the sound of her own voice. We made comments to the mum in the hope she would take the hint that the child was disturbing all the other customers but her comment was "she is a little tinker isn't she" The other customers threw their food and drinks down their necks and left as quickly as they could, some complaining as they left. She did go quiet for a little while but she was screaming for probably at least half of the 1 hour plus that she was in the cafe.

When the lady came to pay we said to the lady that we are very sorry but unless she can stop her little girl disturbing all our other customers and driving them away perhaps she could sit in our outside seating area with her or not come in. We felt terrible to say this but it really was a terrible din that upset many people.

Are we being reasonable or unreasonable. Would you tolerate your child no matter how young being so disruptive to other people in public

Happy,bustly chatter and laughter is lovely. Full on screaming is simply hideous.

But I suspect you know that and are being deliberately obtuse.

Sorry Bonquers, you are wrong. Until we get equal rights, the rights of one will supercede the rights of many. There was a time when people questioned my uncle, a polio victim being allowed to travel alone on a 93 bus. His right to do so superceeded the rights of other passengers to ride without being confronted/offended by his disability. That was in the 1940s. My Grandmother continued to put him on that bus, each and every day, alone. Those of us with children with special needs will continue to excersize their right to choose, daily.

Where are these "adult only places" where you can pop in for a quick bite in a short lunch break. I don't think I know anywhere like that near where I work.

I expect children to be children in cafes and for the atmosphere to be lively if it's busy. If I went somewhere and was subjected to full on screaming throughout I wouldn't go back.

dawndonna it isn't about being offended. No one decent is offended in the slightest by people with disabilities or SN. .

When we go for a meal we simply don't want to be disturbed by persistent screaming from ANYONE. Child, adult or alien.

I don't really give a damn, Bonquers, my family want the same choices you have. On discussing this with ds 2, he wants to know why your right to go for a meal or coffee is greater than his?

Eh? You don't make any sense whatsoever. I couldn't care less whether a fellow customer has SN or not providing they don't spoil or disrupt my meal.

Exactly the same rules apply for SN or no SN. It is you who is discriminating, I am treating everyone exactly the same.

I haven't been out with my 3.2 month son to anywhere public like a café without my DH for 20 months. DS has ASD and is completely without speech. When he gets distressed he will lie on the floor growling and no bribery or warnings will make a difference. It's also not easy to move him as he is a refuser - so to avoid everyone complaining about my unmanageable child, we just don't leave the house.

The four of us went to a Toby Carvery a couple of months ago. DS became distressed after ordering food and started growling. We tried to placate but started getting mutters about ruining the atmosphere. So DH had his food while I walked DS repeatedly round the building. Then I ate my meal and he walked DS round the building. Even though we had taken him outside within five minutes of the growls, we still had to put up with comments and one couple stared angrily at us every time we walked past them. We went home and I cried.

So even though we did everything we could to ease the distress to everyone else, it still wasn't enough. DS may have caused a few minutes disruption for them. But he completely destroyed our meal as we couldn't eat together, were constantly judged and walked round the carvery in the rain.

It does annoy me when parents with children without SN allow them to run riot when I try so hard with my child. But if you don't like noisy children then don't go to a restaurant aimed at families - go to somewhere young children are not welcome.

No one with any decency would object to sharing their meal space with people with diverse needs. I would imagine most people would object to full on prolonged screaming, with no strategies being employed to address it.

And there is NO evidence the child in the OP had SN.

Christ in only half way through this thread and I feel so frustrated at the stupidity being demonstrated by some posters!

No one is saying that parents with children of a certain age should never go out/keep them silent at all times so why are so many thinking that? It seems so bloody simple to me that you should attempt to quieten your child down if it's screeching its head of for no reason other than loving the sound of its own voice. Take it outside if it won't stop it's not bloody rocket surgery!

Also a child friendly cafe does not mean 'we tolerate all children running riot and screaming because adults should realise that that's what children do so we shouldn't stop it'.

OP you are not being unreasonable but goodness me some people on here are being amazingly shallow minded.

In what way am I making no sense?
Ds2 has tourettes, he may make the odd (loud) sound, and he has full body tics, at times. So, why shouldn't he be allowed to go for a coffee/beer/meal with us or his friends? Because you may object to a bit of noise, or someone twitching and possibly knocking the odd thing over.
His answer to that is bugger off or be more tolerant.
He suggest you try Votaire: What is tolerance? It is the consequence of humanity. We are all formed of frailty and error; let us pardon reciprocally each other's folly - that is the first law of nature.

I'd have no problem with being in the same space as your son DD. I do have a problem with sustained screaming such as that described in the OP, where there is no evidence of SN at all and no attempt by the mother to alleviate the disturbance to others.

My dd is 2 and really good at screaming. It's a really high pitched, loud and angry scream.
If she was to do it in a cafe and I couldn't get her to stop, I would leave. It drives me crazy and I can feel my blood pressure rising when she does it. Why would I expect other people to listen to her while they're trying to chat, relax etc???

I said right back at the start that if I'd gone into OP's cafe when the child was screeching I'd have turned round and gone out.

22 pages later I still feel the same. If anyone, child with or without SEN or adult with or without SEN is screeching then I don't want to be there. And I admire cafe/pub owners who, like the OP, discourage it.

Just to add, I don't expect children to be seen and not heard. But a continuous screamis different!

Dawn I have not read EVERY post but I don't think that anyone was objecting to the types of behaviours you describe in your son. I certainly wasn't.
Most people on here (if you actually read what they say) have no issues with children with SN, children who are upset or even children who are having a tantrum.
However, there is a massive difference between that and a child screaming for long periods of time for no other reason than because it can!
Can't believe how silly this is getting!

My son who is 6 makes noises, bangs and bites on things and drops a lot of food because of his severe disabilities, not because he is a child. Non disabled 6 year olds don't do this. He has as much right to be somewhere as any other child of his age and if other people don't like this that is their problem.

i think it depends on the scream. if its a constant high pitched, i would spoil my enjoyment, and i too am a paying customer.

If its a cry - then i'm not bothered, and i have never witnessed anyone leaving becuase a baby is crying,

If its kids which aren't being parented, their parents should be rounded up and soundly punched in the chops.

YABU it not dealing with it quicker. There is no point in saying something just as the mother leaves, you may as well not have said anything if she was going at that point. I think that once the mother (as a paying customer) had finished whatever food/drinks she had paid for then a little word might have been in order but to leave it til she's leaving anyway is utterly pointless. Have you thought about having a basket of toys or books in a basket in the corner? Works wonders the power of distraction does and you can pick a variety of stuff up at charity shops which is likely to keep many a whinging two year old quiet.

You admire cafe owners who discourage people with SN ?

I would boycott their cafe and let everyone else know how intolerant they were.

Yes usual that is exactly what she said .

hothead.

Read again. If anyone's behaviour is such that it is a significant problem/disruption for other people then it's unreasonable to expect them to suck it up when they have paid for a non spoilt meal.

Id that really that unreasonable or out there? Really?

No one, no one has the right to spoil a meal for anyone else.

It really, really is that simple.

He makes the noise he does because he is disabled. It is part of his disability. And so he has rights as a disabled person.

Oh if only it was that simple.