We encourage children in our cafe BUT

[childfriendlycafeowner]

I hope you don't mind us asking any readers for their opinion on child behaviour in public places.

We run a small cafe in a small town, and we love doing it (opened up 4 months ago). The previous owners did not encourage children and families, we do, we bought high chairs and do what we can to make families feel welcome. But today two girls came in with a baby and a toddler, my guess is the toddler was 2. From the moment she arrived the screamed, not crying because she was upset but screaming because I guess she liked the sound of her own voice. We made comments to the mum in the hope she would take the hint that the child was disturbing all the other customers but her comment was "she is a little tinker isn't she" The other customers threw their food and drinks down their necks and left as quickly as they could, some complaining as they left. She did go quiet for a little while but she was screaming for probably at least half of the 1 hour plus that she was in the cafe.

When the lady came to pay we said to the lady that we are very sorry but unless she can stop her little girl disturbing all our other customers and driving them away perhaps she could sit in our outside seating area with her or not come in. We felt terrible to say this but it really was a terrible din that upset many people.

Are we being reasonable or unreasonable. Would you tolerate your child no matter how young being so disruptive to other people in public

Anyway..we are all just doing our best.

dD is usually OK in cafes actually, just today was a bad day.

If she often screamed I'd probably not take her very much either.

I just object to being told that to take her to a cafe is "gleefully expecting others to share in my misfortune".

When it's just trying to eat some food with my child.

Anyway am just off.

Not sure I want to post anywhere where people are allowed to express opinions like MissMarples and to be honest, many of the opinions posted on various threads recently.

It is not healthy place to be really. :(

I agree expat, my dd has sn and really dislikes certain eating places, if she s somewhere where she finds distressing ie pubs we do have to finish up quickly and go if we cannot placate her. We usally jst go to MacDonalds to wat as ts te only place sh feels comfortable. Ther s no way that I would subject anyone to her prolonged hysterics. This means we are severely limited to places we can go

These sorts of threads come up periodically and there's always a select few who say others are discriminating against children who have SN and thus, cannot help the noises they make. The difference is, I would assume that the parents on here who have children with SN, do not laugh and smile at their PFBs but instead, have techniques to manage their child's behaviour.

I agree that "misfortune" is a horrible word to use. I am always conscious of others when out and about with DD. I just accept that we do things that she can cope with, if she was screeching we would get out as soon as possible.

I think in the OP, the fact the mother smiled and called her DD "a little tinker" indicates an indulgent parent, rather than a parent of a child with SN

'It makes me sad that you feel like that expat'

Why? It's very unpleasant and I don't feel it's anyone's right to impose that on others. On the very rare occassions I do get out without him, I don't want to hear it.

piglet, exactly. And if we're not going to enjoy the outing, it's rather pointless. We have enough stress as it is.

'But it's sad that she feels her son just makes people miserable and that life's a bitch and he can't go to cafes, is all.'

He doesn't like it in places like that and so acts out even more. It's hardly the world's greatest misfortune. I'm perfectly happy adjusting so we all have a better time.

It's hard on me hearing her scream hysterically if we go to somewhere where she is nt comfortable and I'm her mother, to expect other people to tolerate it would be madness. I agree iam te little tinker comment sounded like an indulgent parent who expects others to love her dd screeching as much as she does . Any parent of a child with sn is usually awareb of their child's behaviour and te impact on others, usually parents have coping strategies if they dont work get your child away from the distressing situation as fast as possible

Dd hates parties so we don't have them or go to tem but such is life really

fanjo not sure what your post about "people leaving SN disclaimers" meant.

of course you are more tolerant towards people/children who have SN!

it is not ok for my 11 year old to pull my hair, but his ex-classmate who has Down-syndrome would do this. her mum was very apologetic, explaining she does this when she likes someone, so although I was in mild pain I wouldn't have hurt her feelings!
(I was rather honoured in fact! )
I just waited till she was ready to let go.

and I really felt for my friend, it must be so hard to always having to apologise and explain the situation.
it must be embarrassing at times too.
I wonder if some of the posters with SN children feel the same way and that's why they choose the safer options of going to familiar places or stay home.
which is understandable, though regrettable.

but this thread was about a perfectly fine child and ignorant mother disturbing people unnecessarily.
huge difference!

I think with DS it's that in cafes, which are usually quite small, the noise of the business is far more concentrated and intense. This sets him off. He's far better in a larger place, like a McDonalds or food court or in the outdoors.

That's fine with me. Why stress both him and me out even more?

My DD is the greates blessing anyone could ask for, she's certainly no misfortune.

However, that doesn't mean that I just go and do whatever I want without thinking things through first and having exit strategies in place. I would never sit in a cafe for over an hour if she was disturbing others. Not fair on her, on me and on other patrons.

And I would never stick around just to prove a point

But I am talking about noises that are happy noises! The child in the op was happily playing with her toys, maybe the mum had just never had someone complain about her child making squeals of joy before. I know the child the op was talking about probably didn't have sn, but If I saw someone being told not to return to a cafe because their child was making too much noise, (happy noise, tantrum nois, whatever!) it would stop me going there again.

My ds loves going into cafes ( the iPad just tried to change that to 'cages'!) but sometimes there will be something that happens that makes him screech - either in an excited ' a van has just gone past the window and I think it is a fire engine' kind of way, or sometimes a 'the clanking of those coffee cups is making me really unhappy' kind of way, he can't talk and it is not something I can particularly preempt. At the moment he just looks like a toddler making a screeching noise, but I guess as he gets older, it will get more looks.

I hope it doesn't stop us going to the places that I enjoy going with him, and his older dd's.

I get ya expat and piglet.

I really wasn't having a go.

I just can't post on this thread any more after MissMarples comment and the lack of general outrage at it. In fact I am coming in for more criticism than her,

You don't need to explain yourselves though because I am also living the life.

expat and piglet

I wish I could invite you over, not the same as a cafe, but I'd serve you my gorgeous lemon cake and would not bat an eyelid if your children would be noisy! mine are!

hazey I hope so too. x

Fanjo - I saw the comment and thought it was absolutely dreadful. I didn't say owt as I have argued enough on this thread, and I truly thought she would be shredded without my help. x

It's pretty obvious to anyone now that he, a VERY large 4.5-year-old, however, is different .

I have reported missmarples unplesant remark fanjo. I hope it will be deleted.

I think context is everything. It's not reasonable to be snotty about a hungry baby crying in a cafe - or a grumpy toddller - as long as the parents is taking steps to sort that out. If it cannot be sorted the child needs taking to another more private place where they and the adult can sort themselves out. In larger noiser places there is less pressure too. In the OP's case there was no sorting out and it sounds quite a small place. Totally 'off' to allow your toddler to persecute other people like that.

I have friends with NT children and friends with children with SEN. If either come to my house I expect a ton and a half of happy child noise. I don't expect distress to be tolerated nor do I expect behaviour which could be otherwise directed to be tolerated if it is annoying or distressing. I have a friend with a totally non-verbal child. Sometimes he is quite vocal as he seeks to communicate with his parents and others. That's fine. Communicating is always fine. Shrieking for the hell of it (not as a symptom of distress) never is.

Actually I think I would like to change 'I don't expect distress to be tolerated' to 'ignored' - because obviously sometimes you can't fix things and you have to tolerate that distress. That's different from ignoring it which I can't abide.

my SIL's sister has a close relative with cerebral palsy.
When they went to speak with the vicar about having their wedding in his church, said vicar questioned this relative with cp and wanted to know how loud he would be during the ceremony. When my sil explained that he would often shout out at random unpredictable moments, the vicar wasn't happy about this and looked like he was about to decline their request to get married there. My sil didn't give him the chance to. She turned him down and got married elsewhere and yes, her relative was a bit noisy during the ceremony and nobody gave a flying fuck.

Fanjo - I was disgusted at MissMarples remark too. That was why I posted earlier. I haven't really followed this thread as it seems to be the same old, same old.

Some people just talk out of their nether regions and are best ignored.

I have reported my own comment to mnhq btw as I know personal attacks are not allowed but that comment really got on my fucking goat!

Stepaway - that's terrible and utterly, utterly unchristian. Our church has a family with a now adult with serious disabilities. If we had objected to occasional noises from him during services his parents would NEVER have been able to attend church as a family. That vicar needs to ask himself what would Jesus do - and it isn't insist on silence!