to ask if DC shouldn't bother with university if they can't get into a Russell Group one?

[TuTuTilly]

I'd never heard of the ruddy things before I joined MN. Didn't even realise I'd been to one. I do recall when I had a tedious summer job in Human Resources which included "sifting" job applications for an international firm of accountants, being told to dump any that weren't from a handful of universities.

So my question is; if your child can't get into an RG university - should they accept that they will be unemployable oiks upon graduation and resign themselves to a life working in call centres?

She's quite the most amusing writer some of us know.

Having not read the whole thread, just bits, I thought I'd use my [RG] degree course info to interject:

I was taught by a v well-respected economist that education is merely a signalling tool: no one really cares about the content of what you learnt, merely the grades achieved, so that (like Spero above), they can sift through large numbers of seemingly similar people. When bombarded by thousands of graduates who seemingly have similar skills, something is required to differentiate them, and a simple way is via their University.

Anyway, seemed to work for my husband and me: both went to RG Unis, both got Big 4 graduate jobs. He'll soon be a Big 4 partner, I've taken a bit of a career break for the children (I'm working, but PT and not at my full ability or salary bracket).

When I was choosing Universities, I wanted to get into the absolutely best of my abilities. Sadly, Oxbridge was beyond me, but 4 of the 5 universities I applied to are in the RG (although I didn't know that at the time). [Showing my age] When I applied to Uni, Polys were still so-called, and I didn't apply to any, as if I couldn't get into a red brick, I didn't want to go to Uni. This was [cough] 17 years ago, and given this thread, it looks as thoguh things haven't changed that much.

strict the question was not should DC provided they make the required grades only apply to RG unis. It was entirely different. The was if DC can't make the grades required for a RG uni, should they bother with uni at all? That's much more difficult to answer.

Although, since some degree courses aren't actually taught at RG universities, that makes it slightly easier in some cases...

LaQueen, I am surprised you don't like Austen, I thought you had quite similar senses of humour.

Have you read her letters? I quite like the one where she says a mutual friend has given birth early, possibly after a fright ... 'She may have looked at her husband unexpectedly'

(This is meant as a compliment by the way)

Thinking of Spero's sifting, would there be a perceived difference between a two candidates who get the same law conversion degree from the same RG uni, but one candidate has a good RG and another with a Poorer non RG batchelors but who had done well enough to get into the better Uni for the Law conversion?

(I can imagine people who mess up A levels, or who work hard, coming in that way)

My current chambers adopts a more rigorous process than previous chambers - now we have to allocate points for class of degree etc, and each application is looked at by at least two people to try and make it as fair as possible BUT given sheer weight of numbers it is quite possible that a perfectly good candidate might get binned because first university is perceived as not so good.

The problem is that it is very easy to spot the outstanding and the awful candidates. That is probably only about 20% of the applicants.

You can't just pick the outstanding to interview as they are being courted by everyone and may well turn you down.

So you have to find five or so from very many applications from people who have all done pretty well.

I am glad I didn't appreciate this when I was applying or would have had nervous breakdown.

I remember in 1994 I think, the Bar School in London (then the ONLY provider of this course in the country) decided to select based on A level results as some study or other claimed they were the best predictor of future success. Cue lots of shock for my friends who had ballsed up their A levels but who had got into 'good' universities by the back door, I.e. by applying for unpopular course which only required low grades. I think there was a successful judicial review and they had to abandon that policy, but it's another example of just how desperate we are in certain fields for a way to deal with huge numbers of applicants.

In law, I really think you will struggle if you don't have good A levels and degree from well respected university. Not because you wouldn't be a good lawyer but because you just might not even get interviews.

I'd never read JA for pleasure - I find her narrative voices rather pleased with themselves - but don't tell anyone!

I love JA's turn of phrase. I use 'an unhappy choice lies before you' in so many contexts.

Sorry Spero, I was unclear - as I understand it you can convert to Law from a Batchelor degree, I was wondering what happens where 2 people, both now with a Law conversion from a good RGUni, have different initial BA degrees, one from RGGoodUni, one from ExPolyUni.

i.e what happens to kids who go to an unfancied Uni, do well, then get a Postgrad or Conversion etc from a good RG Uni, vs those who were at a Good Uni the whole time?

'I am not considering matrimony, especially as I am not in want of money at the moment.'

Crikey, Spero, My brother is a barrister, good job he qualified before 1994!

LaQueen I can respect Austen, as I say, she changed writing styles for 200 odd years. Doesn't mean I have to like her.

mother I adore Angela Carter, Austen is the one thing with which I disagree!

Lazy, it's the firstr university which counts. Eg my daughter was a Bristol for an unreltaed first degree. The places you go after like BPP in London to do the conversion course will take anyone who can pay just about whoever thick they are and however unlikely they will ever do well in law and those places do not really count in terms of their prestige. The hard bit is getting into a good university for your first degree. SO it can be quite hard to make up for bad A levels and a university for a first degree from somewhere it is dead easy to get into.

I think if you do very well in your conversion you have a chance, but remember you will be competing against people who have brilliant A levels and were undergrads at top ten universities, who also did well on conversion.

Now you are looking at high tuition costs I would not be pushing my DC to university unless it was going to pay off. Good A'Levels open doors and if my DC were wanting to go into business I would be pushing them to start at a Big 4 accounting firm and train as an accountant at 18. After finishing their accounting exams I would support them doing an MBA or going to university as a mature student to study whatever subject they want to study. Likewise, if they were not sure on a career path I would encourage them to gain work experience and go to university as a mature student.

If my child was academic then I would push them to only apply to RG and oxbridge.

It is a relief to see that there are people who don't like Austen. I suspect that there are loads, but she's one of those authors one is supposed to like, so nobody admits to having a dislike for her.

LaQueen Angela Carter is hardly plebian!

She's ok I'm glad I never had to study her however. I used to read Georgette Heyer for some fluff. A great cutting line in that.

Nearly all of us got placements at big 4 (or 5 or 6 as it was back then), I had no idea it was so popular until mn. I didn't know they took pre-graduates at 18 Want2bsupermum.

Yeap they do. Apparently they have been expanding the program as lots don't want to get into huge amounts of debt. It is an option that I think is worth checking out if your child wants to go into business.

However, if you have a child interested in this I think it is very important that the parents are on board to support the child. If I were to do with my DD I would have her live at home until she had her exams passed and would push for DD to go to university to either complete a bachelor or masters program.

Sounds like a good idea. I skipped out and did other stuff but I remember my friends saying the exams were hard and a high standard when working. Great if you can go straight to that.

If you have a DC who is set on being an accountant and doesn't want to incur uni debt then push them towards the KPMG university thin sandwich scheme (other similar schemes probably exist too). I would never push a young person towards doing AAT then ACA, with no degree. Those kids will likely end up as fodder.