to ask if DC shouldn't bother with university if they can't get into a Russell Group one?

[TuTuTilly]

I'd never heard of the ruddy things before I joined MN. Didn't even realise I'd been to one. I do recall when I had a tedious summer job in Human Resources which included "sifting" job applications for an international firm of accountants, being told to dump any that weren't from a handful of universities.

So my question is; if your child can't get into an RG university - should they accept that they will be unemployable oiks upon graduation and resign themselves to a life working in call centres?

Russians I agree that you need to do a degree but I think doing the accounting qualfications first followed by a degree (bachelor or masters) as a mature student is better if you want a solid career in the business world.

If I were to advise a young girl wanting a career in business I would strongly suggest they consider joining a big 4 firm at 18, getting their ACA or ACCA qualifications and instead of working while having young children, I would encourage them to do their degree, preferably an MBA at a top school such as LBS.

They make them do AAT first. Many stop at that point, whatever their original intentions. I think it;s a minefield myself.

Gaah! Austen did not change writing styles. She was not very popular at the time, and only one of her novels went into a 2nd ed in her lifetime. Mansfield Park didn't even sell the full print run.

And she was most definitely not one of only a few women writing at the time - she is one of a few our culture chooses to remember. Actually most popular/ light novels at the time were written by women.

That's something studying English at degree level does for one - makes sure one actually knows something about the books one reads.

(Wanders off grumbling and adjusting tweed jacket...)

Northanger Abbey was published the same year as Frankenstein, you know. Or maybe you didn't. I find this very interesting not least about wimmin writers.

Well as a marketing MBA who believes success lies in being a marketing / customer led business I think an accounting qualification would be a mistake if someone actually has the intellectual ability/ inclination to think strategically and creatively.

When I asked the Career's Department at my DD's top ten girls' indie where by far the majority end up at top universities studying academic subjects where most of the girls end up career wise (as opposed to aspiring to the usual being journalists or in the fashion industry she said by far the majority who haven't done vocational course like medicine, or gone into the arts, end up in PR / Marketing / Advertising. Basically via the same career path I took. A few end up in straight IB, very few accountants.

Personally I think that is where the greatest intellectual challenge and fulfilment lies, especially as my marketing career led me into developing and implementing strategic plans at Board level for a top 500 company but I would say that wouldn't I?

Oh and a few lawyers of course....

Sorry a punctuation free zone there,

An accounting qualification is rarely a mistake for people who are interested in pursuing that course of action so long as it's not the only thing you have. Hence the most successful people have also Physics or History or Maths or Politics or Geology or PPE or even English degrees. It's the experience you get while obtaining the qualification that is the useful thing, not the qualification in and of itself. Hence my low opinion of accountancy degrees.

However I think that 'traditional' models of business are evidently on their way out. Portfolio careers are the likely future for most people, and creativity and the ability to think strategically, to analyse and to communicate will be at a premium in that future. Hence my preference for arts based degrees for people who can think and who want interesting jobs. Arts ed is a different issue, obviously I couldn't support it more, really, and since the arts remain one of the more comparatively thriving sectors in the UK economy I think that if you want to try that route then you should give it a go.

I did my CCAB qualification after my degree.
I don't feel its limited me.

That's funny, Peasant do find me a university that is currently not teaching that Austen changed writing styles.

Russians I think we would agree that a business needs a range of skills and talents. If you do not have the makings of an accountant then there are plenty of areas where you may well be able to make a contribution. I always felt the rarest skill set was that of a truly effective project manager, especially ones that could work at the highest levels. However it probably takes actually working in business to clarify where your talents lie and I really don't think you can learn effective business skills until you are on the job. Indeed it was why I wished I had done the Cranfield MBA instead of my more academic one, though I did discover within a few months of finishing that it had actually rewired my brain without me even realising. With many employers now seeking their marketers etc, rather more fully formed with vocational qualifications I wonder how that process will work.....

I think portfolio careers are definitely becoming more common and wil continue to do so.

Our DC will need to be ready to reinvent themselves. Perhaps more than once.

And in the writing world, indeed I expect in most of the arts, the vast vast majority of people have portfolio careers, because work is unstable and it often doesn't pay enough to have only one thang going on.

Personally I like it. I find it very interesting. But then I do have the concentration span of a peanut ...not always good for the old blood pressure though.

Copthall While very few end up being accountants, most will have gone through accounting or consulting to get to their destination. I was rare in that I started in IB, went to accounting and will probably either stay for as long as I keep moving up or move back to IB but in a middle office role to start with. I know I should do an MBA with two babies, DH travelling and me working full time it is just too much. As I am in the US I took CPA exams and taking them while pregnant and working FT just about finished me off.

Russians Totally agree about not doing an accounting degree. Being able to do journal entries doesn't really add much in the way of soft skills that are so important in RL!

I think vocational programs for business are very important which is why I place value on doing an MBA if you want a career in business. Truthfully it's my biggest regret that I didn't do an MBA in my late 20's. Given I have gotten pregnant twice now in two years by accident I don't think I could cope taking an MBA with two/three young children at home while DH travels. If I were to do it all over again I would probably do ACCA after finishing school (getting the Oxford Brooks degree along the way) and then do my MBA at either a US school, Instead, Cranford, LBS etc.

Cor, Wordfactory, a whole peanut? I'd give a lot for a whole peanut....my concentration span is far smaller

wanttobe Not Oxford Brookes. Exeter or Manchester. The UWE programme is getting good reviews too but personally I'd only look at them for new media. INSEAD would be magnificent of course.

Most people don't realise the doors that a solid accounting qualification can open for people with the right skillset. I honestly can't remember the last time I did anything remotely like double entry. At least 20 years ago!

word my writer friends all have portfolio careers - both the technical writers and the playwrights/screenwriters and novelists. Many of them combine with directing, music and even in one case a solid science-y career. DD1 is anticipating a portfolio career like all the musicians and composers we know. It's the only way, now.

The only reason for getting the oxford brooks degree when doing the ACCA is that some MBA's (the ones in the US for sure and I think LBS does too) require a bachelor degree. It doesn't matter where it is from but they require one. I wouldn't put the degree from oxford brooks on on my CV put it that way.

I think a bachelors in business doesn't go far enough. You really need to do an MBA after you have experience (at least 5-7 years IMO).

want2b if you have ACA and good experience you don't need an MBA. Unless it's from INSEAD. Of course, good experience is crucial. And you get that by having a rounded skillset, not only having done accounting since age 18.

I got my ACCA while working, having worked for several years before.
Exams do not make you a good accountant, practice and aptitude do.

10,000 hours as they say

I never considered an MBA as I never considered multinationals

Dawn - well, I don't know anyone who specialises in that period these days who would make that claim. At least not in those terms. She is obviously highly culturally visible now, but simply wasn't at the time. So she will of course have influenced later writers from about the late Victorian period but not in a straightforward way.

She was part of a whole host of writers in an emergent realist/ comic tradition at the time, from Frances Burney through Maria Edgeworth and Susan Lennox.

Mother - yes NA was published posthumously...why?

...if you want a specific university, btw, Dawn - mine. I won't name it but my close friend studies Austen's reception history and she certainly wouldn't claim that.

Revolting
I've just read this back and I must apologise. My earlier post sounded really quite agressive, it was not my intention and I could have phrased it in a far more polite manner. Sorry.

Your university is, I think quite unusual, there is a theme with Austen at present (around the last ten to twelve years), that teaches as said above. I didn't present the argument clearly enough, and at this time of night am not up to it. I shall hie away to bed and come back in the morning.
Once again, sorry for coming across as rather a bitch!

Russians Here in the US you do need an MBA. The CPA exam doesn't go into enough depth in other business areas and from what I know of the ACA, it doesn't either. I would only do an MBA at a top rated school. As for having a rounded skillset, I didn't learn much during my undergraduate. I learnt everything on the job and was surprised by how much I relied on my knowledge gained during my school years. My current employer is surprised by how much I know about accounting considering I never took an accounting degree. To get my CPA license I took all but 6 accounting credits at community colleges.

Talkin Agree with you on exams not making you a good accountant. That is why I would suggest to my child they go out and get experience before getting a degree in business (focusing on non accounting courses). I figure that working in accounting for at least 6 years (18 through 24) would provide them with enough experience to get more out of an MBA program. I bill on average about 1500 hours a year so six years would give you 9000 billable hours while I work more like 2500 hours a year which gives you 15k hours. For me I audit larger private companies (revenue of $150-900 million), benefit plans in addition to doing reorg work. Thankfully there just aren't enough companies now needing help with bankruptcy or restructuring.