to be sick of the inverse snobbery about Grammar Schools?

[MummaEss]

I live in an area which still uses a Grammar School system. I understand that the system is highly controversial to some people and I do not start this thread with the intention of it turning into a heated debate about the pro's and con's of said system.

My issue is that having a daughter who attends the local High School, I am often left feeling almost embarrassed and apologetic about this fact when talking to people who's children attend a Secondary School. So often when I talk to other mothers about schools, the minute they find out that my daughter attends a Grammar, I get a long speil about how Grammar Schools are hothouses and put too much pressure on the kids, the fact they are often single sex will leave the kids socially awkward, the rumours of Grammar kids who 'burn out' or go off the rails etc etc etc. This is then followed by raving reports of how amazing the Secondary is and how fabulously their offspring are doing. These are often (but not always) the same people who eagerly looked round the Grammars before their children took the test.

Now don't get me wrong, we are indeed lucky to have some very good Secondary schools in my area. I myself passed my 12 plus many years ago and opted for the Secondary over the High School as I felt it suited me better. I do not think either type of school is better than the other, just that both suit different children.

If I were to turn the tables and slate the Secondary schools to a mum who's child attends and then rave about how superior the Grammar School that my daughter attends is and how well she is doing, I would be branded a horrendous, arrogant snob and rightly so.

Soooo aibu to expect a bit more tact and less venom from non Grammar Mums?

Apparently taking the brightest stream out of the school reduces the 'challenge', if that's the right word, and the other schools achieve lower results

Well, removing the top x% lowers the results of other schools because the brightest top-graders aren't there to contribute their grades to the league tables.

The thing is, education is not a one-size-fits-all thing. There are children who will do best in an academic environment and children who would thrive in a vocational one. Currently, a selective system fails only the children who would thrive in a vocational environment. Non-selective has the capacity to fail these children plus the brightest.

IMO, focus should be put on providing education for the children who would excel vocationally.

My brother 'failed" academically but excelled when he went to college to train in mechanical engineering and went on to have a very successful RAF career. I would say that his GCSE years were wasted.

I made this point up the thread a bit:

In this borough we have 4 grammar schools who have 690 selective places for a borough cohort of approx. 5000 children. Of those 690 places, only 18% go to borough residents - the other 72% of places are filled by out-of-borough applicants, mainly Greenwich which has a high number of West African Christians who value educational excellence above all things.

So the question I would ask is: If the comprehensive system is the be-all-end-all why is there this fight for places every year? What is wrong with their own borough schools? There are some excellent comprehensives in Greenwich.

There is an in-borough 11+ and the out of borough residents sit on a Saturday - it is not uncommon to see a queue of something like 700 children in a line with parents, filing into the grammar, waiting to sit the test. That's just one grammar that I drive past and there are 4 of them. They come from miles round. My sons school has over 2,000 external applicants for 150 places.

HollyBerryBush I agree with every word you have written.

I have also encountered the attitude described by the OP : not as a parent but as a child. The day I got the letter announcing that I was in sticks out: my class teacher refused to speak to me all day because she didn't believe in the grammar school system. For a quiet 11-year-old, that was memorably mortifying.

Twenty-five years later, it seems like nothing has changed with regard to people's attitudes and belief that if you/your child are fair game for snide comments and tongue lashings.

Oops, lost a line. "If you/your child are grammar-school bound.

It's enormously socially divisive and encourages the worst in human nature (ooh my child is cleverer than yours! And by implication I am cleverer than you too). People enjoy having a chance to look down on their peers and believing themselves to be better, although of course they won't admit it.

It's very unpleasant and negative for children to hear they are at the shit school with all the thickos, and they are thick too, because that's what it boils down to. Sheep and goats.

It is not something I want my taxes funding, schools should do their best for all children.

Selection at 11 is also unfair, people develop at different rates. There are many examples of that happening from my own life and no doubt others. It's the Daily Mail small-minded shit about how grammars are better BECAUSE they are divisive (keeps you away from the riff-raff who just don't want to learn).

Of course some people who went to grammar school (or their children attend them) will pitch in defensively justifying their choices, and how they are not snobs, etc.

We don't hear about the people who went there and did not achieve academically, there are lots of those.

There is no such thing as society - actually it's enormously influential re people's life chances, but people tend not to look very hard at these systems, they just like to think they and theirs have risen to the top because they are superior.

Here we had automatic entry to the selection tests - as I said up the thread I wanted to pull DS3 out because Grammar was never going to be the vehicle for him, he simply could not cope. His teacher (and DH) thought it unfair to remove that opportunity from him. he cried all the way through which of course just proved I was right as usual He was only a couple of marks short as it happened so he settled into sec mod, top set.

As it happens, come SATs results, he was only 1 mark short of DS2's marks in KS2! But I still maintain DS3 is not a genuine academic, he is more your arty farty sort of bloke! He's much happier with his music, drama, singing, food tech whereas DS2 will sit and do equations for fun weird child give DS1 a bit of wood and a hammer and he's happy

I'm pleased the borough has removed the automatic entry and parents must apply to sit the test - which I think is better - if only that most people do know their childs capabilities. I did not like the ridiculous state the school allowed regarding the 11+ for DS3, it caused a an enormous amount of stress and unhappiness for a long time in his little life. None of it propagated by me.

People enjoy having a chance to look down on their peers and believing themselves to be better, although of course they won't admit it.

No "people" don't. Some people do but, generally, they are twats all round.

You could also say with equal accuracy that people enjoy making out they are hard done by/looked done upon by others/playing the martyr but in reality some people just have a huge chip on their shoulder.

Most people couldn't give a stuff.

Of course some people who went to grammar school (or their children attend them) will pitch in defensively justifying their choices, and how they are not snobs, etc.

I'm not down in Kent with the super-selectives in an affluent area - there you see my social conditioning comes out already posh people = money , here we are the 3rd poorest London borough by house price indicators.

I don't think my son has become a snob by his grammar experiences, nor any of his friends, who are an eclectic mix - there don't appear to be any 'rich' parents. They are all just like us 9-5 commute, feeling the pinch, running crappy old cars and shopping in Lidl

schools should do their best for all children.

Yes, they should. They should do their best for all children and not just the middle masses.

Why would someone who passed a test age 11 need to justify that they are not snobs?

Why does a parent need to justify their choice either?

By all means take issue with the system, but if you have a list of schools to choose from and one has a reputation for being excellent, it's hardly being a "snob" to send your child there if they are capable and get accepted.

I'm very glad we don't live in a grammar school area. Much prefer this part of London where there are many private schools and good state schools.

The division is less stark, there are so many assessments a child can take, or not take if state, it isn't so stressful. It is when you're going through it but afterwards nobody cares. Everyone just thinks my child is in the right school for them.

I would say it's natural for those other mothers to do that. Their children have publicly "failed" at 11 and they will feel defensive about that. They'll also be pleasantly surprised that the secondary schools are not as bad as feared and are probably rather good. They are also probably "heading you off at the pass" before you get a chance to talk about the advantages of Higher. They probably all want their children to be at the Higher, secretly.

It is a bit rude but you can sort of understand it.

We are in Gloucestershire and overrun with bloomin grammar schools - they are not filled with Gloucestershire's finest - but kids from all over the place - kids who have come from private prep education, kids who have been tutored to within an inch of their lives.....

Here there is the snobbery about tutoring - "Oh - you are not starting tutoring til Y5 - you don't want "XXXX" school then" - the grammar schools here are ranked - if you don't get into XXXX, YYYY is next then ZZZZ etc....

There is a general view here that places are "bought" by who can afford the most tutoring... hence the inverse snobbery

MadeOfStarDust - me too. DD was tutored in Y5 (Rich aunt paid) but didn't really need it. She got into XXXX school and I have already been asked by parents of children as young as Y1 how I got her in (they don't believe me when I said I did nothing, she had some tutoring but is naturally very bright and bloody lazy). Poor DD2 is next and the expectation (NOT FROM US!) is that she will get into the same school...she's not even looked round yeat. She may well prefer our excellent local comp.