to be sick of the inverse snobbery about Grammar Schools?

[MummaEss]

I live in an area which still uses a Grammar School system. I understand that the system is highly controversial to some people and I do not start this thread with the intention of it turning into a heated debate about the pro's and con's of said system.

My issue is that having a daughter who attends the local High School, I am often left feeling almost embarrassed and apologetic about this fact when talking to people who's children attend a Secondary School. So often when I talk to other mothers about schools, the minute they find out that my daughter attends a Grammar, I get a long speil about how Grammar Schools are hothouses and put too much pressure on the kids, the fact they are often single sex will leave the kids socially awkward, the rumours of Grammar kids who 'burn out' or go off the rails etc etc etc. This is then followed by raving reports of how amazing the Secondary is and how fabulously their offspring are doing. These are often (but not always) the same people who eagerly looked round the Grammars before their children took the test.

Now don't get me wrong, we are indeed lucky to have some very good Secondary schools in my area. I myself passed my 12 plus many years ago and opted for the Secondary over the High School as I felt it suited me better. I do not think either type of school is better than the other, just that both suit different children.

If I were to turn the tables and slate the Secondary schools to a mum who's child attends and then rave about how superior the Grammar School that my daughter attends is and how well she is doing, I would be branded a horrendous, arrogant snob and rightly so.

Soooo aibu to expect a bit more tact and less venom from non Grammar Mums?

Lots of areas have good grammar schools then abysmal secondary schools for those who don't make the grade. Grammars creaming off the brighter students does not assist schooling across the board.

The system never used to be divisive re money. There was no tutoring in my day. You were put forward by the school to take the Kent Test. Social mobility at its best. I appreciate that things are somewhat different these days. Dh and I both came from working class backgrounds and went to Grammar school. Back then the only angst was whether you could afford all the uniform.

Just for the record I am a single mum who lives in a council house and works for minimum wage. I did not tutor my daughter.

I must say though, that most of my daughters friends at Grammar School are considerably better off, I think that most are also justified in being there on their own merit, you can see the ones that are only there from tutoring a mile off.

Portofino the uniform is still the issue. I had to stump up over £300 on 'uniform day' and thats without the selection of gym shoes and acceptable school shoes. I did however manage, despite my circumstances.

Reallytired, if a child only passes the 11+ (or similar) due to tutoring, then the grammar is not the place for them and they're less likely to thrive there.

By creaming off the topmost bright pupils, it gives those pupils opportunity to be academically stretched; those who aren't as academically bright would be much better served in the normal secondary where they are not forced down the 'must go to university' route that happens too much these days.

If the grammar school system was brought back, in the right way, it would give so much more opportunity to those children from families that can't buy their education whilst not ignoring those pupils who are 'dragging the results tables down'.

Are you in Buckinghamshire OP? Just wondering as I went to secondary school in Buckinghamshire and the girls grammar next door was called the high school. I think it's a big deal whether you go to grammar/secondary if you live in an area that has them. Well it is until you leave anyway

We have selective education round here, and always have had. People are happy with it in general. Have never come across any kind of snobbery about it - it is just the accepted way of life. I know people with DCs at grammar who like it, and people who think they push too hard; but in general they are pleased their children attend it.

I know people with DCs in the secondary schools. Some rate them and think they are providing a good education. Some think they are not great - but accept that their DCs would not cope and are not academic enough for the grammar.

I don't know any parent who would rather they scrapped the system and went comprehensive.

It seems to generally work for all.

I agree with the OP that the venom comes from non grammar parents/children. My daughter took her 11 plus and has secured a place at at super selective grammar (the schools description) from September. Yes I am proud, no she wasn't tutored or pushed. The reactions from others has been jaw dropping. One friend of 10 years has ignored me, several people comment on how DD will end up self harming and being bullied and have an eating disorder etc etc when they have no experience of the school at all.

Scotland doesn't have grammar schools or the whole angst about catchment areas.
As far as I can see our education system hasn't suffered, or is any way inferior to the English system.
I don't get it.

YANBU, I teach at one and I find some people's attitudes on here really strange grammar schools are unfair? When it costs about £30k a year to send a child to a private school? including many former grammars

OP, just smile and say vaguely that your DD is happy at your school and you're glad their DC likes theirs too. It is just insecurity and possibly they are genuinely pleasantly surprised by what their DC's school offers (non grammars do sometimes have much better material resources from what I've seen).

I think it is probably a very British thing, denigrating state grammars as 'hothouses' while ignoring the elephant in the room that if you are very rich you can just dodge the whole issue, and as other posters have pointed out, thanks to the (mostly grammar educated) politicians attempt to dismantle the grammar system, it's irrelevant in most of the country anyway.

My dn is in grammar schooll
The main difference between grammars and the average state school is the expectation. All students in grammars are expected to do well. They don't have foundation level GCSE.
The teaching is definitely not better according to my dsis

My experience has been similar to sowornout's.

I have found the same attitude but I don't think it is confined to education.

It is ok to criticise people who spend a lot on their DC but not those who spend very little. It is ok to criticise designer goods but not cheap brands. The rich are evil but the poor are righteous. If you evade or avoid taxes you should be shot but claiming benefit whilst working on the bins perfectly acceptable.

You can ask for more tact, but I doubt you would get it.
I would just suck it up if I were you.
I do think though that they have a bit of a point as regards single sex schools.
I went to a single sex school. I wouldnt say that makes them socially awkward, but I do think it can sometimes have been better to have been mixed sexes.

OK am confused. This system doesn't exist in Scotland. Kids either go private or go to high school. Is grammar school the same as high school?
We do have catchment areas though - Ds will be going to a high school out with our area but it just means that we have to pay his bus fare, he doesn't get free school transport.

People demand grammar schools but never secondary moderns. It would be interesting to see a league table of how counties like Kent and Bucks compare with Hertfordshire or Surrey which are mostly comprehensive.

Personally I would be in favour of different pathways for different interests. However the child should pick whether they do academic or vocational options rather than an exam. Such decisions should not be made at eleven years old when so much can change. Children need the flexiblity to be moved both up and down sets.

Phineyj I agree. It's so odd that there's more resentment towards intelligence than money.

Grammars creaming off the brighter students does not assist schooling across the board.

If you include grammars themselves as being part of what is "across the board" then they do assist education in general. The brightest students have the chance to achieve their potential and we're more likely to get more state educated people in top positions, rather than just the Old Etonians we currently seem to get.

Students who do not go to grammar school can then be taught at their own pace instead of constantly being compared to the brighter ones and being nearer the bottom of the class.

People demand grammar schools but never secondary moderns.

Really? I'd be quite happy to see them reintroduced. Education is best when people learn alongside others of similar ability.

Grammar schools don't exist in most of the country.

I'm amazed at the number of bloody threads on MN about them TBH.

"Students who do not go to grammar school can then be taught at their own pace instead of constantly being compared to the brighter ones and being nearer the bottom of the class."

If grammar schools were allowed to kick out under performing children to make way for high achieving secondary modern children then the system might work. However expelling a child for lack of progress (like many top private schools do) creates an enviromnent of high stress and is inhumane. (Especially if its personal circumstances like the death of a parent which has affected performance.) Also a bright secondary modern child may not want to leave their friends behind to move to the grammar.

It is better all round to have good setting and a gifted and talented programme for the really bright. Children who underachieve can quietly be moved down sets without the shame of being kicked out the grammar. Children who are late developers can be moved up sets.

It is better all round to have good setting and a gifted and talented programme for the really bright.

Comprehensives have had decades in which to make this happen. They haven't done it. 40 per cent of comps are still failing the brightest.

Only a minority of students will be on the borderline between secondary modern or grammar. Is it really fair to base the decision for everyone else on these few?

We have them here and very nasty and divisive they are too. It looks like we will be the first authority in decades to open a new grammar. Bloody great.

SUE 52. Yes it is great that Kent has the will to open a new Grammar School lets hope other areas follow suit.

I would have used the grammar school system like a shot if we had had the option and if my dc hadn't qualified so be it.I think it is the absolute fairest way of ensuring the best and most appropriate education for all children.