AIBU to feel like telling my CEO to go and.....basically unpleasant.

[HoveringKestrel]

So I've worked at my current work for 6 and half years. (I'm a gay guy and work is ssometimes a Boys Club kind of atmosphere but I get on with everyone).

Anyway, today I got called in randomly, as he looks very randomly at cases, and got told if I want to progress then I need to 'grab the bull by it's horns'. He then proceeded to ask if he had upset me as if I was a flower he had just poured salt on.

I had been dealing with this case and the person I was corresponding with is friends with CEO (same Religion), and apparantly I should have pressed for more information....e.g. Demanded it. Now it's certainly not in my remit to give this guy a hard time, if anyone it is my Manager's to demand better performances ffrom them. But in any case we're lucky if this correspondence talks to cannnon fodder like me!?! (nobody says that but its kind of an unsaid thing)

He's older (CEO), probably three times my age, fine, there is certainly a generation gap for some when it comes to talking to a homosexual, but I'm not delicate or dainty nor do I pretend to be.

Now I know I'm the best one on my team, I'm the most resourceful and most knowledgable but I take a step back rather than light a catherine wheel everytime I do something correctly.

I felt like SCREAMING. But in retrospect I'm not ssure if he's secretly routing ffor me and just went about it wrong? I can't talk to people at work because when I told people about 'the chat', they decided to hear "grab bull by its balls" and it went back to me being gay and into the boys club again. I would really appreciate 3rd party opinions.

Are you saying you think he's treating you badly because you're a 'gay guy'? And the rest of the office are the same?

Regardless of what kind of boys club atmosphere there is, surely that's just bullying pure and simple.

You don't have to put up with that crap.

I'm not asking this to minimise what's going on or suggest it's not how you say it is, but are you sure you're not reading things into what they say that aren't there?

I do it myself, and like you say, if you can't talk about it to anyone else, it makes it difficult to get into perspective.

It's easy to see things through a specific lens if you're suspicious of why they're saying it, but could they have said these things without making a reference to who you choose to have sex with?

I'm not sure what you mean about reading into things that aren't there? Do I think he's routing for me? Maybe. Will I go to a football match with him in his executive box....no, obviously.

Do I think they like to point out a lot I'm gay....oh yes, very. It can be belittling sometimes and my other faults are picked up a lot more than anybody elses. This is in a very 'banter' filled atmosphere, and I laugh with them and I guess thats why they continue because I'm a good sport.

I'm also not fat, and fairly attractive compared to some of them, with a constant upbeat attitude, which might do their head in. I also go on LOTS of nights out and its never an issue. Its just in the office. But if I was straight I would probably be everybody's best mate.

It just frustrates me that this is the first pep-talk hes ever given to me, and I'm lucky in one respect as its a large compaany and theres lots of staff, this is not a common thing. But I also think....you're not talking to me like you would to Jack-the-Lad.

What does your sex life have to do with your job?

My sex life doesn't affect my job, not really, I'm obviously gay apparantly, my voice, my hair (its always excellent :P), I don't know, and outside of work everyone is great to me and I'm one of the lads, and its not even an issue normally.

The issue to me isn't the office politics, but obviously this isn't a normal office which I;ve become aquianted to.

But this one 'chat' really got to me. It was as if he was telling me I wasn't being blunt enough with our correspondence, Ok fair enough, but then he asked if he had upset me?

It was as if he wanted to talk to me like I was a man but was afraid I would cry!?

What I mean by reading things into it is that you're privately thinking you don't fit in because you see yourself as a different type of person to them and feel because of that they don't like you.

But that doesn't account for 'being different' not being a plausible reason for not liking someone, everyone's different to everyone else. Could their 'banter' be seen as their way of showing you they include you in their group rather than that you're on the outside of it.

If you go along with it, is it possible they think it's a legit way of talking to you? Given they don't know how you privately hate it?

I must stress again though that I'm only saying these things as an exploration of what might be going on rather than saying you're being OTT and should take a joke, because bullying in the workplace I know to be anything but a joke and is very serious.

Have you ever given any indication of not liking it? Not that they should need to be told like.

'I'm also not fat, and fairly attractive compared to some of them, with a constant upbeat attitude, which might do their head in.'

This bit is a good eg of what I'm trying to say, you are basically saying the reason they treat you differently is because you're a good looking confident chap and they're jealous.

I can understand why you're looking for reasons for feeling they treat you differently, but how you interpret it might not necessarily be how it actually is.

To be honest AgentZigzag I think exactly like that, you've read my mind of pretty much every working day. Sincerely. And I'm glad you said it as a 3rd party also. It DOES get tiring certainly because, to be blunt, I can imagine how the first Women who were mixed within male education must have been treated sometimes - not with hostility, just a bit alien.

But my colleagues were not really my point. I was called in because I didn't demand enough from this guy who is a friend of CEO, and its not in my remit not to. It was then I suggested I didn't because it's "not in my nature" and I need to "grab bull by horns"....basically 'Man Up'. And I'm very blunt and direct to the people who it's needed to be, but this is a friend of CEO.

And after 6 and half years of commitment to the company, the CEO didn't need to treat me like a piece of wet paper.

I didn't mean "they're fat and I'm not, I'm happy and they're sad" I just meant I know I can stick out a little bit.

It's never easy to hear criticism, and if this is the first time of being hauled over the coals, you're going to wonder why aren't you?

Why now and never before in your six and a half years?

Is he using general stereotypes about gay men as a way of criticising you, as he sees it, 'constructively'. I.e. that you must be a wet blanket because you're One Of Them.

But if you feel you use a different and less aggressive technique to how your colleagues approach clients, is it that which he's focusing on? That you are less aggressive and he's talking to you with care because he doesn't want to make you feel like crap, rather than because he's being a patronising twat and you're not able to get results?

Also, could the client being his friend mean he thinks he knows what buttons to press to get the info and is worried about how the client will see his operation running if the client is also running along aggressive direct lines?

I'm only saying what comes to my mind as I read your posts, I'm not saying that's how it is (sorry if I keep saying that but I don't want you to feel worse than you already do, and if you really do feel bullied you should take steps to stop them)

AgentZigZag, I really do appreciate your opinion and I think its very relevent and very astute. But maybe I'm not explaining the situation properly.

Other people on my team, who to be honest get less results than me and constantly need help (basically everything he doesn't see)....he calls in for general chit chat about life, invitations to football matches etc.

I would appreciate, if I had done something less than expected, he just told me, not ask if he upset me.

Maybe I just needed to vent and this could end up in a whole can of worms of equal oppurtunities when it comes to homosexuality. I won't.

This incident just really got on my hips!

It's isn't that you're explaining yourself badly, it's that you've answered what I've asked as 'no, I don't have this out of perspective, they really do use my homosexuality as a reason not to engage with me on a personal level'.

If you come to that conclusion too, then they're using it to bully you, ostracize you, exclude you, like a bully would do in the playground. You're not one of us, you're one of 'them', outside the group.

It's not acceptable at school, and it's not acceptable at work.

Do you feel able to take it further? Given that it's your job on the line or if you stayed and braved it out, that they might behave in a way that's worse than this?

I don't see why it should be you moving as you've done nothing wrong (I loathe it when the victims of bullying at school are always the ones feeling pressured to change schools), but is moving jobs an option you've considered?

(I'm sure there'll be more posters in the morning, apologies if I'm over-posting )

You are right to be honest, it's not where my thread started, I didn't feel treated differently specifically, but I probably am. The problem is, its two of my good friends who ringlead the jokes. I won;t get into a friendship/work problem as thats totally different.

But I think I probably am treated differently at work because I'm gay. In an office enviroment, to someone who is nice to everybody and doesn't like confrontation...it might be inevitable. People WILL take advantage.

'But I think I probably am treated differently at work because I'm gay. In an office enviroment, to someone who is nice to everybody and doesn't like confrontation...it might be inevitable. People WILL take advantage.'

And that's what is difficult to make a call on, are you treated differently because you're gay, or because you're nice and they're taking the piss?

Your instinct is computing it as being because you're gay, (and being nice and avoiding confrontation are being used against you and you're viewed as being like that because you're gay, rather than the reality that you're genuinely a nice bloke who'd be that whoever he slept with), and you don't have to take that kind of bollocks from anyone.

If someone was trying to pass off 'jokes' as banter about a black person and that they must be generously endowed, reducing them to a sexual stereotype would not be OK. (I'm thinking Lynford Christie and the lunchbox 'joke')

But if you come to the conclusion that it's bordering on the illegal (or totally illegal? I'm not sure) can you live with that knowledge that you're being bullied because you're gay and still carry on working there as you are?

If you can't then it's whether to move on without saying anything, or whether you're able to take the bastards on, and as you've said you're not up to confrontation, that would only leave finding somewhere without such wankers to be happy when you're working.

The hilarious thing about what you have just said is....one of them is black.

He stole an umbrella out of my pocket (he is my good friend) and I jokingly told him not to fit the stereotype. I was making a joke, like I am a 'Fag-end'. And now I'm apparantly racist. I think there IS a vast difference in judgement between racism and homophobia, even if it is meant with jest.

I think you are probably treated differently at work because you make a big deal out of being gay. (Like on here - it's hard to treat you like any other joe, because you pretty much always mention it - like you are very proud of being different. And that's good - whatever floats your boat - but if you have built your work personality on some mythical 'cool good looking gay guy' persona, then he probably has picked up the hints that you want to be treated differently, and is at a bit of a loss how to achieve it as you are eschewing his usual management techniques.

I'm very used to this, btw. It's very sad when people seem to think they need to comic up to a stereotype, and then get offended when people do it for them (I'm talking about yourself and your gay persona, and your colleague and his black one).

I think your manager may genuinely not know how to treat you, because you insist on being recognised as different. Clearly his remit is to treat you the same as everyone else, and he was giving you a pep talk about being more forthright and direct with a client, characteristics which are traditionally chalked up as masculine. Do you think he felt uncomfortable having to do this, as the persona you have cultivated is not? (I think the whole masculine hoo ha is a nonsense, btw, but then I used to get sent out to seek and destroy instead of the dudes). So his clumsy are you ok? stuff could be seen as him trying to strike the right note with the persona you have created?

At least you know how women feel when they are patronized by dudes in the office, anyway.

So, are you going to be more forthright and prove that your carefully created immaculate gay dude image doesn't prevent you from doing the job he wants you to do?

Or are you going to call homophobe?

I think if it's the first bit of advice he's offered in six and a half years, you've probably got the wrong end of the stick, tbh. Not everything has to do with your sexuality.

And that 'people WILL take advantage' stuff is bollocks of the highest order. If you don't want to be taken advantage of, don't. And if you don't like it, don't go along with crap banter. If you enjoy the attention and want to have a bit of racist banter with your friends, you crack on. It won't be painting you in a very professional light, though.

In some ways, what the person is being bullied about is irrelevant because it's all about the bonding of the 'in' group.

He can feel justified with bantering about you being gay because he's 'one of the lads', but you can't banter back about him being black because they've cast you as on the outside. (not that I'm saying it's alright for you to have said that to him, could you have done what you accuse them of doing?).

But just going back to the boss bloke, you say he wouldn't ask you to/chat to you about the football, are you into football? If not, then why would he ask you?

And reading back what you said about him presuming you were a delicate flower and presuming you'd be upset, that actually does sound quite caring of your feelings. Just because he takes an aggresive stance in business doesn't mean he feels comfortable riding rough shod over peoples feelings. If he likes you and thinks you're a good worker then he's going to give a shit about how he treats you. And so he should!

Are you again using stereotypes yourself when you say he didn't talk to you in a Jack-the-lad way, him barking and telling you to pull your pecker out and grab the bloke by the balls wouldn't have made you feel any better, as I'm sure it wouldn't the Jack-the-lads. They're feelings are no different to your own (unless you think they feel more secure and can brush it off easier than you can?)

Is the clients religion relevant, as you've mentioned it in your OP? I can't help feeling you're hinting at another kind of stereotype there you might inadvertently use.

Hahaha Ok prissyenglisharriviste. You think I'm waving gayness in the face of Corporate Business and begging for acceptance?

Erm no.

Shush.

I was trying to give a slight insight to my personality so it might shed a bit more light on the post I had started. I don't use it as an excuse to be different, I mentioned it a few posts later than my oringinal post and I had sidetracked to the original topic.

I don't paint myself a victim because, like I say, I have been there 6 and half years and I like working there. This one meeting I had a problem with.

The CCEO doesn't work with me and had no reason to treat me different to anyone else.

And I KNOW he doesn;t ask people if he has upset them like it's a routine HR issue.

'pull your pecker out and grab the bloke by the balls'

That wasn't an intentional pun at all, given the subject matter

Honestly, I'm trying to choose my words carefully

Good post prissy.

'And I KNOW he doesn;t ask people if he has upset them like it's a routine HR issue.'

He's never had to chivvy you in the past before and he made it clear that how you took it was important to him.

That should elevate him in your mind IMO, not provoke you to look for reasons of how he was treating you badly.

He had something difficult to say and he said it in a way that impacted on you the least way possible.

That's consideration, and it's lacking in a lot of places.

Look, the original Post was, the CEO had a chat with me to grab the bull by its horns, he then filled my mouth after I said....'Its".....and he proceeded to say "not within my nature". Filling my words like he knew me.

He doesnt know me. What I do is invisible to him.

Yes I am interested in Football to answer your earlier question.

Im the most productive on the team. He assumed it wasn't in my nature. Not to mention the correspondence in question is a FRIEND of his. Would you Quiz a friend of the CEO? In anycase, thats my Managers job, not mine. I would get in TROUBLE.

He then proceeded to ask if I was upset?

My reaction was so confused that when I began to think about it, I came on here. I didn;t mean it to be a gay theme.

Maybe it's as simple as he asked you if he had upset you because he thought you looked upset. You really have no idea if he would have asked one of the other men or a woman the same thing if they gave the impression that they had been upset by what he said.

You obviously don't like the fact that he told you to take the bull by the horn etc. In your post here you said as much and that it's not your job to give the friend a hard time. Your body language/facial expressions may well have told him that's what you were thinking, hence him asking if he'd upset you.

You mention him and his friend being the same religion. Of what possible relevance is this? That's a bizarre thing to say in the context of your post.

To be perfectly honest I think what he said to you was absolutely nothing to do with your sexuality and everything to do with how he thought you were doing your job.

No, I don't. I think you like to be recognised as different. It's your 'thing'. Like probably some of the other guys you work with are the rugby dudes, or the beer drinkers, or the ones known for picking up women of a Friday night.

But I think you have over-reacted to a pep talk, and the CEO's discomfort of not knowing how in the heck to tell you that you need to be more robust, when you are definite about your character being 'nice' and a pushover. You can't come on and tell everyone how lovely you are, and then chalk it up to your being gay when your manager tells you he needs something else from you.

If you are saying you are too nice and a pushover, then surely that could be his problem? Not who you choose to sleep with? There's no rule that says a gay dude is a doormat.

I don't think there's any begging for acceptance going on at all - I think you misunderstood me.

I think you would have been better off saying 'my apologies - I was less robust than normal in this exchange as I was aware he was a personal friend of yours. It won't happen again.'

Out of interest, what was your actual response? Presumably something must have triggered his subsequent 'have I upset you?'

In twenty five years in the workplace I have only ever heard that said to people who are genuinely looking frail. Never as a bullying or homophobic tactic, and only ever when a manager either fears they have been overly harsh, or fears they have genuinely upset someone.

Banter is an interesting phenomenon. It can just as easily be used to bond as to create Other. Fine line. And you are still quite young - you must have started in this company very young, so maybe you are still clinging to that boyish image too. Time to mature?

I mentioned Religion because business has a lot to do with it, they like to keep associates up in their own community. I wasn't saying its a bad thing its just the way it is. It makes my position, as someone not privy to that, slightly awkward when. I was treating someone with respect because they were an associate of CEO. I was then given the permission to quiz them, and told I was too soft, in the same meeting.

I promise I'm not being precious about this. I've been gay for 7 years (I'm 25) and am more than happpy with this, hence why I spoke about the boys club.

I did say earlier whether this should be a priveledge that CEO did this. Maybe it is. But he should have told me earlier I could go ape shit at the associate before guessing I was a soft touch

I totally see what you're saying about not taking on the CEO's mate, that you didn't feel you had the authority to do that.

But if he feels he knows your nature is a different and less aggressive one to your colleagues strategies in general, could he have been trying to use that example to tell you he'd prefer a more direct approach than the one you have at the minute?

That that is the way he wants it to work, and because he's the one calling the shots (and taking the flack if things aren't as they should be) that he's every right to say what he did.

Please don't take any responses here personally, only you know the subtle ins/outs of what you're going through, just because someone gives an alternative take on it doesn't mean they're having a pop at you. Nobody would answer if they weren't trying to be helpful, try not to mistake directness as hostility.

prissyenglisharriviste Apologies for earlier telling you to shush, You have touched upon the exact fact I was trying to make. I wasn't making it about me being gay, it kind of got slingshot in another direction.

My reaction was it wasn't in my remit to give the Associate a hard time, that was for my manager. Its entirely ture but CEO didn't like to hear it because apparantly all of his staff should be Conan or Xena. But the M.D really likes me because I tell him how it is.

I have a good relationship with the MD so I like the workplace, its just the CEO who I think has me wrong.