To wonder why on earth Troops to Teachers is considered to be a great idea?

[ballinacup]

Before we start, I'm not armed forces bashing, I'm sure there are some troops out there who would make excellent teachers. But why on earth offer a fast track course to troops without a degree?!

It seems like sheer madness, why not offer the fast track course to anyone? Am I missing some glaringly obvious fact that makes it all make sense? Or has Gove got a vision in his head of classrooms running with military precision if he has soldiers at the helm?

Can someone please explain it to me, because I'm genuinely puzzled.

I give up. Where has Gove said you need no level of education at all? Where has he said you can teach a subject without a GCSE or O level in it?

Of course soldiers don't have GCSEs or A levels or degrees. They're not suitable for teaching because they aren't educated!

I give up on this thread.

But teachers I think you do need to be careful, your profession is falling apart, it's in a mess, it needs fixing, realise that and be active not destructive. You are losing support.

Judging by the rates of mental illness, substance misuse, domestic violence and divorce amongst those in the forces and upon return to civvy street, I doubt it. One of my former nurse lecturers was an army RNMH and my god, the things he used to tell us about poor mental health in the army. Adding to stress by joining a very stressful profession possibly lacking rigorous professional training over a period of years is not going to aid good mental health.

"Army officers and NCOs are used to blind obedience"

Although I only know the Royal Navy, that statement has to be utter nonsense (perhaps Army posters on here can comment).

You give up? because some people are proving difficult to communicate with?
What sort of an example is that to set, for heaven's sake?

Goblin

And the army isn't losing support too, Captain. It needs to properly look after its own before it 'looks after' our children. Public funding of army charities needed to look after ex personnel because the armed forces consistently fail them is not the answer. In my experience, people sympathise with the often horrendous task teachers face. They do not blame the teachers.

But that's a whole other story.

Pendeen I speak as someone with very close family army connections and also as someone currently trying to help an young ex-soldier bullied out by a vile NCO because he occasionally asked, "Why?"

And the army isn't losing support too, Captain...I needed to add an ironic face to that...

The frustrating thing here is that everyone is assuming troops means frontline infantry soldiers and are therefore stereotyping all military personnel the same way.

CaptainJamesTKirk Fri 07-Jun-13 11:19:08
"I give up. Where has Gove said you need no level of education at all?"

He has suggested a fast track system of only 2 years combined teaching and subject training instead of the standard combinations of either a degree + a year PGCE (= 4 years in total) or a 4 years teaching programme.

If it was just a case of utilising those ex-army personnel who already have degrees, then we would not need a new programme: they can do what everybody else has to do and to the extra year of PGCE. Those candidates don't need a 2 year programme, because they already have the option of a 1 year programme (having already done the 3 years of their degree).

This is a programme for teachers who will end up less qualified than is currently the case.

^^ What Cory said.

Surely an ex military person with a degree would just do a PGDE like every other graduate? This is only for non-degree educated people.

Cookie804 Fri 07-Jun-13 11:24:42
"The frustrating thing here is that everyone is assuming troops means frontline infantry soldiers and are therefore stereotyping all military personnel the same way."

No we are not. We are saying either military personnel have degrees and then they can go down the same route as everybody else or they have not got them and then they should get them if they want to teach. Same as everybody else.

I do not assume that frontline will be teaching. But I am deeply opposed to the de-professionalisation of the teaching profession. If you do not want to make the commitment to proper training, then you probably shouldn't do it.

This is the same nonsense as making student nurses work on wards pre studies. Nothing mentioned about where all these positions are going to come from and the fact that many many student nurses were NA's and continue to work as NA's during their training.

If teaching isn't careful it'll go the same way. And all because Gove has a chip on his shoulder about not having had a classical public school education from nursery (he was a scholarship kid at a later age).

'The frustrating thing here is that everyone is assuming troops means frontline infantry soldiers and are therefore stereotyping all military personnel the same way.'

Stop with the wild generalisations please, I lived an army life for 20 years and am also a teacher. I am very aware of the differences within the military and the varying levels of education and prejudice that exist.

Depressing that so many posters assume that ex-army must mean shouting & bullying .
It is a good thing to get people into the teaching profession form all kinds of other professions to breath a bit of reality into the classroom. Ex-army have already demonstrated a very high level of commitment to public service, so a special scheme to encourage them to consider it is a good thing. many won't want to - they are in big demand elsewhere, but if we can get those who are interested - good!

Who says teaching is a profession that is falling apart? In what way is it a mess? Why does it need fixing? Evidence for any of that?

The fact is that the majority of children leave education better qualified and more informed than when they started. For children who don't necessarily achieve academically then often schools have given them other very valuable lessons.

I see teachers who knock their pan out for the pupils. Who are dedicated and inspiring and hard working. I see pupils who succeed with support. I see pupils enjoying their learning and growing as a result of it. I see pupils for whom school is the only safe place they know and teachers are the only safe adults.

I am sick and tired of being told that education is broken. It isn't. I'm tired of being told that all of society's ills can be laid at the door of teachers and schools. They can't.

Gove and his ridiculous cronies want to point the finger and accuse to make headlines and fuss so that people will be distracted from how inadequate they (the government) are at their jobs. I am much, much better at my job that Mr Gove is at his.

Even if we get them without the proper subject knowledge, Catherine?

And why soldiers, specifically? Why are we not telling firemen and nurses and paramedics that they can come and be teachers without the usual qualifications? Do those professions have no contact with reality.

Of course, any member of any one of those professions can decide to retrain as a teacher- and good luck to them! The structures already exist for this. But according to this new plan, soldiers are to be unique in that they can be teachers without the level of training that is needed for anybody else. Why?

Joskar Fri 07-Jun-13 11:41:30
"Who says teaching is a profession that is falling apart? In what way is it a mess? Why does it need fixing? Evidence for any of that? "

This. Not a teacher myself but have two children in the state secondary system and have been very impressed by what has been done for them.

We are currently encouraged to believe that the teaching profession is falling apart and that teachers are responsible for collapse of society as we know it. Possibly aided and abetted by fraudulent disabled people.

I remember the days when it was single mothers who were responsible for all the woes of the nation. And before that it was homosexuals.

What I never remember seeing, about any of these evil demolishers of society, was any kind of evidence.

These things come in fashions.

What occupation are you in Captain?
Because it is not the army is it.

As cory seems to be saying, the idea is not really about those who currently teach in the army[didnt know anyone did], but about others, whoever they may be, suddenly being able to go from who knows what into teaching, in two years instead of four, like ordinary mortals.

Joskar "The fact is that the majority of children leave education better qualified and more informed than when they started" Sounds like a definition of failure.
Surely all pupils shold acheive this.

What a ridiculous idea. Teaching children is completely different to training adults and would require a whole different set of skills.