To wonder why on earth Troops to Teachers is considered to be a great idea?

[ballinacup]

Before we start, I'm not armed forces bashing, I'm sure there are some troops out there who would make excellent teachers. But why on earth offer a fast track course to troops without a degree?!

It seems like sheer madness, why not offer the fast track course to anyone? Am I missing some glaringly obvious fact that makes it all make sense? Or has Gove got a vision in his head of classrooms running with military precision if he has soldiers at the helm?

Can someone please explain it to me, because I'm genuinely puzzled.

did schools have a military ethos in the 50's and 60's?
mind you of course, as we had the largest empire in the world until the 50's and 60's, oppressing nations left right and centre, plus of course the postwar korean war and suez, warmongers sounds a good description of the whole of maybe 18th century onward

what exactly are the benefits of a military ethos for schoolchildren? and who for?

i am with Vera Brittain tbh on this. why did so many young men rush to volunteer in ww1? a militarised society, starting at school - public school 'military ethos'

funny thing, military ethos. sometimes what looks like courage and loyalty is called terrorism (going to fight an oppressive regime in syria that gasses women and childrrn)

The British Army's values (as taught) are: Loyalty, Courage, Discipline, Selfless Commitment, Integrity and Respect for Others.

Could do a lot worse than have those taught in our schools also.

I meant that in the 1950s and 60s an overwhelming proportion of the male population of the country (whether teachers or in other roles) had active or national service experience, and many women had taken uniformed roles too.

It did not turn the entire county into warmongers or supporters of dictatorships.

Young boys need male role models, I presume the idea of using troops is to appeal to the types of men that young boys vulnerable to gangs and crime would look up to so they can be positively influenced by a 'manly' man who isn't involved in criminal activities. Boys need men to teach them how to be a man, if there's no father/uncle/teacher figures to do that they'll be influenced by the local drug dealers/ gang members that dominate certain areas. Also, if they can deal with war, they can cope with discipline issues in the classroom.

Actually, we have an ex army trainer as an NQT and he struggles with discipline ( and he teaches year 3!) He says that, in the army, when he said "Jump" they did! But children aren't like that. Certainly older children realise that, as with all teachers, the sanctions we can impose are nothing like the sanctions imposed in the military for disobeying an order!
So, whilst I have nothing against ex armed forces training as teachers, don't assume they will find it any easier than the rest of us!

having been in the army or being a soldier is completely different to teaching a 'military ethos' to children

and why does the state need schoolchildren to be brought up with a military ethos? what exactly is the state envisaging for the future of those children?

those values: respect

don't even try for one second to tell me that is a value that the military have and noone else does. or that schools dont currently teach. outrageous!

selfless committment - to what? to whom?

again - really only a military value??

or, what is the difference between, say, the military's view of what this might mean, and a civilian's understanding

also - whenever you hear someone high up in authority start to bang on about 'selfless' anything, start running! it will be 'heroic self sacrifice' next

i did not give birth to and raise my children for them to be the modern equivalent of cannon fodder

military values my arse

Selfless commitment to the team, to the mission, to something bigger than oneself. As opposed to atomised individualism and 'my rights'.

Funny, I'd have thought Lefties would like the idea, given their banging on about 'community' and so forth.

I think this is completely unfair. I have classroom experience, I work with children and young people, I have 2 degrees and I would love to be a teacher but I can't afford it.

Why should ex-troops get the chance?

Nobody is giving children a military ethos but the ethos of the trainees is a work hard-play hard one.

Stop writing people off that you have never met!

I am one of those on the scheme, the fact I was in the military was only important to give me access to the training (and if you look at the details it is far from a fast track!). I just have lots of experience from having had another career first.

Because they have served their country and deserve to be given a chance to transfer their skills into civillian life?

How have you managed to get 2 degrees but end up unable to afford to become a teacher?

Piper Rose - Erm, Schools Direct funded route? You would get paid more than me!

I am sure training squaddies and no degree will transfer into the ability to ensure every student is making expected or more than expected progress - whatever their additional need or vulnerability- and that Y11 all achieve the equivalent of A*-C grades (which will be a number by then of course not a grade) in Mr Gove's souped-up, extra-hard new GCSEs.

Will people actually read what the programme requirements are? When I finish the course I will have a degree in primary education with QTS - pretty much the same as every other teacher out there! Plus I will have 2 years classroom experience to back it up. Now unless I am mistaken, PGCE is 1 academic year with 3 placements - that is a lot less time in school than I will have done at the end of this process. I also earn less than a third of what I was on in the military so I have hardly done this for selfish reasons. When I feel the urge to instil some military discipline in my classroom I shall realise I am in the wrong profession. What I intend to be is a male role model for some kids who don't have this at home and the best teacher I can be. I have to meet the same standards as any other teacher (look up Teaching Standards on the DyE website) and then show me where the shortcuts are please!

Anything that breaks up the cosy cabal of the teachers unions and the vast majority of teachers having little to no experience of life beyond the classroom has to be a good thing, surely. I honestly think degrees are overrated in teaching. You don't need a degree level of knowledge in a subject to be able to teach it to GCSE level. Being able to control a classroom is far more important. I can remember many teachers who clearly were VERY clever people but were just frustrated with the job and unable to understand why many of the pupils just weren't interested in the lesson, whereas a history teacher we had who was former army was one of the best teachers I can remember, even if he did tend to veer wildly off the lesson plan.

TusconGirl They chose to do that job, the same way that some people decide to be nurses, charity workers, emergency services staff. It's my belief that they have served their country also, and I think thy should be afforded the same opportunities. I can't afford it because I live by myself and am therefore responsible for everything. I can't afford to pay fees or take a cut in my pay.

I removed my son from our local secondary because it was chaos, teenagers hanging out of the classroom windows screeching at each other during lessons. It did make me think of feeding time at the monkey house. I think bringing in ex squaddies as teachers may be the only thing to restore discipline to that kind of school.

exforcestraineeteacher Thanks. I've looked at this, unfortunately because of the 'golden handshakes' to other subjects there are no arts places available, and I still wouldn't be able to afford the cut in pay.

PiperRose, people in the Military only serve for 20 years. Most of them will need to do some other kind of work in later life.

Bt they know this before they join-up, it's not like they're conscripted anymore. A lot of people retrain these days , there's no such thing as a job for life anymore.

Nursing and emergency service staff is about as close as a job for life as you can get these days. And signing up for the military is more of a commitment than just about any career out there, you sign your life over to the services for four years at a time, not something you can just decide to hand your notice in when something better comes up. Then there's the danger involved. There's plenty of reasons why former AF personnel deserve to be given a little help in retraining.

I'm of the opinion that someone who signed up to be trained to kill shouldn't be allowed within 100 metres of a teaching position at a school. There are a plethora of people who've spent a couple of weeks in prison for trivial matters who are disqualified from approaching employment with children. Why is there no big push to get those people cushy white-collar jobs with golden handshakes?

Piper Rose - retraining is what we are doing! I won't go into numbers on a public forum but there are not actually that many people on this scheme, as the recruitment process was quite strenuous. In fact, my local university has more than double the amount of PGCE students at the moment than are on my course.

I did 24 years in the military, none of it as a shouty stereotype that this forum has painted us as. I have trained people of different nationalities and religions all around the world, having to build trust and rapport with them. This course will teach me the pedagogical knowledge to teach to children the National Curriculum (in whatever form that takes!) and will give me the same level of qualifications as any other teacher.

Also, the serving the country bit - I've done that for quite a while, I still feel I'm doing it now except I don't have to wear a uniform. I think of it as giving something back to society now I have left the military.

I haven't RTFT- forgive me if this has moved on.

I teach children statemented for emotional and behavioural difficulties. These are the soft skills I use every day;

The ability to stay calm in ANY situation.
The ability to read a situation and rapidly predict a range of scenarios that might happen next and plan to manage them on the hoof.
The ability to win 'hearts and minds'.
The ability to lead strongly but with endless compassion.
Forward planning to manage unpredictable, sometimes hostile, human beings.

I think people who have been successful in the military may well have this same skill set.