To wonder why on earth Troops to Teachers is considered to be a great idea?

[ballinacup]

Before we start, I'm not armed forces bashing, I'm sure there are some troops out there who would make excellent teachers. But why on earth offer a fast track course to troops without a degree?!

It seems like sheer madness, why not offer the fast track course to anyone? Am I missing some glaringly obvious fact that makes it all make sense? Or has Gove got a vision in his head of classrooms running with military precision if he has soldiers at the helm?

Can someone please explain it to me, because I'm genuinely puzzled.

more to do, I meant ..

I think it's a great idea. Obviously not every ex army employee will be suitable, but for many it will be great. Fwiw the best teacher I had, who made a massive impact on my grades and I remember with huge admiration was not a qualified teacher. In fact she came into the profession late at about 40 after a career in journalism.

I've worked with ex army officers and they can be brilliant colleagues, excellent communication skills, focussed and dedicated and very efficient. I do think it will help school discipline, especially with boys who I'm sure will respect them a lot. I'd be very happy for my child to be taught by ex military.

I've probably missed the post that covered this but one of the other points to be made about high level qualifications and teaching ability is that you still need to be able to take on board the social work and care aspects of the job.
Something along the lines of what bochead was talking about.
Oh, and yes, independent schools can employ anyone they choose to, but in most cases have preselected the children bu ability and income, and the parents have a vested interest in them staying there.

Is there a chemistry teacher with a double first and a Doctorate in their chosen subject who would not only be prepared to teach average classes to an outstanding level, but to also take time to adapt and meet the needs of all the children in the class? To not just bother with the able and untroublesome, but the disaffected and disadvantaged?
Including an explosive Aspie who overturned an entire workbench and ran out of the room when pushed to meltdown? To encourage and adapt materials and resources in their own time and learn all that was needed to help that boy succeed
Thank you Dr X, but you are the rarest of creatures. You could indeed be earning so much more elsewhere, or have done the teaching without the caring. The majority do. Because it's all about the grades and OFSTED, from 4-18.

Discipline?
How would ex-Forces personnel have disciplined my son?

I think some people ie Gove are mixing up discipline and behaviour management. As a teacher your role is teaching pupils to think and explore ideas for themselves not to obey the rules. BM is all about creating an environment in which all pupils can progress. I think the most important qualification teachers need is a high level of emotional intelligence.
I am lucky I work at a very good school in an area of high social deprivation where every day we get to see the impact a good school can make on a child with a chaotic life. I teach because I love it. BTW I went to Oxford and earned twice as much as I do now 10 years ago and would never go back.

flyingtree- just how many of the million plus ex-forces men have you met? Your statement is risible.

Oh- and I'm pretty laid back and ex-forces. What does that do to your statistics?

Off you pop and try and find a decent well argued point.

"Discipline?
How would ex-Forces personnel have disciplined my son?"

Exactly in line with school policy, plus any individual requirements. The generalisations and outdated stereotypes on this thread are appalling. But I'll make one - exForces are really really conscientious in adhering to procedures. It's the training - if you think an order is wrong, you query it with the stake holders. But unless you make the case for change successfully, you do what is laid down. You never just go off on one. This is inherent in the military, from earliest days and most junior ranks, right to the very top.

'Exactly in line with school policy, plus any individual requirements.'

That's the point though, school policy didn't work for him, and DrX had to take time away from being an outstanding chemistry teacher and use the considerable knowledge and skills she had as a fully-trained teacher to work out how to support him effectively. It took a while.
You can't just follow procedure all the time, and sometimes there is no clear structure to follow. That's one of the tricky bits.

So forces people are used to doing as they are told. How does that translate into getting little Johnny to stop being disruptive when the sanctions available are a talking to or detention? And when little Johnny's mum thinks he's an angel and teachers just pick on him for no reason?

What magic do they teach them in the military that will help here?

Apart from in science and maths I want to know where the fuck all these jobs are.

I think it's impossible to suggest all soldiers would be good or bad teachers or that they'd all go to schools with discipline issues.

Does anyone seriously think that teachers are sitting around going: Oh, can't be arsed disclipining these kids? No, they are constrained by their SMT, who are in turn constrained by financial punishments if they exclude "too many" pupils.

At my last school in the UK, no child in LA care could be suspended. I'm aware that such children are often in unbelievably trying home circumstances, but the line was , just keep them in the building. The result was a number of unmanageable children strutting round the school telling the staff where to fuck get off.

This meant the marginal voters, those who could be swayed by example or the fear of reprisals, joined in. Downward disciplinary spiral ensued, due to systematic failures, NOT the capacity of individual staff to manage their classes.

The impression I get from all the many military people I know is that orders have to be obeyed and then if you disagree there are channels you can go through to query but very few do. I think the issue here is more that some people can teach some cannot but the skills you acquire in the military are no more/less likely to make you a teacher so they need to go through the same training/entry requirements as everybody else. I work in a school where we have a few ex-service teachers some are fab one is crap but their background is fairly irrelevant. However the biggest thing I notice about former naval officers, I was happily married to one, is their sense of entitlement. So the average state secondary will be a huge shock!

"So forces people are used to doing as they are told. How does that translate into getting little Johnny to stop being disruptive when the sanctions available are a talking to or detention? And when little Johnny's mum thinks he's an angel and teachers just pick on him for no reason?

What magic do they teach them in the military that will help here?"

No magic: that's in the teacher training, in terms of specific actions. Or at least I damned well hope it is. And they will be getting rather more that say a Teach First graduate. And in terms of personality, well that should be covered in selection - just as it is for any other applicant of any background.

I do realise that others may know more about whether there are specific weaknesses in teacher training. It does seem that there is a high level of concern that both selection and delivery are ineffective at blocking the unsuitable from reaching the classroom, and in providing effective training.

I don't think the military would become unduly bothered by Gove - look at some of the ministers MoD has had! And of course, once they knew the instructions to them were legitimate and the stakeholders would not be persuaded to change course, then they would get on with making the best possible outcomes to whatever was in front of them.

When this scheme was first discussed, IIRC, in about 2009, the ideal candidate was a WO from REME/RSigs who would become a maths/physics/general science teacher. I'm not sure how attractive this scheme would be to officers, whether with a sense of self-entitlement or not.

I think there are two points here. Firstly, there is still a recruitment process. It's not a case of semi-literate corporals leaping out of a trench in Afghanistan and into a classroom full of children. The target section will be people that have completed their 22 years and are re-entering the job market in their mid-forties.

Which brings me to my second point. Many people in the forces joined at 18 with basic education. Over the years, however, they will have completed all manner of high level training (much of it engineering) that has no civilian equivalent. That is to say that academically, they are proven and talented but don't hold the relevant piece of paper.

The value of (suitable) military personnel is that they will have spent many years working in tough conditions within strict guidelines - exactly as teachers do. Good leadership also isn't about just ordering people about (a common misconception of the forces), it's about nurturing talent. You can only recruit at the bottom in the forces, so you have to develop the potential of those under you - like teaching.

I think people are right to be concerned, of course. But perhaps it would be more helpful to understand the parallels rather than worry about the differences.

Sassy - you have a degree though!

We have a business manager who has a commercial background but our headteacher was and is a teacher, which is how it should be IMO.

Someone who fully understands education because he has been in the classroom and was passionate enough about the education of children to make it his career.

Teachers are trained in management, but yes some are better at it than others and having experience of management in a different setting has definitely helped me.

LaQueen, I get your point about horses for courses.

But why would a business or finance manager need to be a qualified teacher anyway? They don't teach!

LaQueen I think my situation is the norm these days.