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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think that there is nothing wrong with being a "pushy" mum

999 replies

CliftonGirl · 03/06/2013 10:55

Just that really. I used to be a "relaxed" mum with DS1 which I regret, but thankfully I switched to a "pushy" mode when he was in year four. As a result he moved from a bottom-middle set to a super selective grammar and doing brilliantly. I am very pushy with the younger DCs.

I've noticed a lot of people on mumsnet think that we are still in the 20th century and you can get to Oxbridge from a mediocre school without much effort. AIBU to think that the world is much more competitive now and there is no choice but to push DC to achieve?

Ps, English is not my first language, so please don't flame me for the spelling mistakes.

OP posts:
HeadsDownThumbsUp · 05/06/2013 15:14

Yeah, we all know the research. It's good for kids to learn musical instruments, for a wide variety of reasons. No doubt about that.

If you think it's guaranteed leverage towards future professional success, you're deluded. But you're not interested, I don't think.

Once again, you singled out the exact part of a post you think you have the trump argument for, and ignore the rest.

Seriously, if you are looking for a big pat on the back and a round of pro-tips - just ask for that. Don't throw open the pros and cons of pushy parenting in general, if you are not interested in the cons.

In my experience pushy parenting makes a negligible or marginal difference to the career trajectories of most kids brought up that way. In a small number of cases it makes a big difference, for better or worse.

You're just going to have to wait twenty years to find out - if the outcome that matters to you is seeing DCs in middle class professions. Good luck.

CliftonGirl · 05/06/2013 15:16

As I said before I want them to have options in the future, nothing g is guaranteed but a good set of a levels might keep their options open.

OP posts:
Hamishbear · 05/06/2013 15:25

CliftonGirl you're right I've read that the brain is neuroplastic and while children are not born intellectually equal there is a window where brain power can be significantly boosted. The more connections are made - and connections are made through stimulation in the right environment - the more are formed. The brain can grow and change hugely. I know some who have taken this on board and the results appear to be extraordinary. Most would think them bonkers and in the UK it wouldn't be seen as sensible etc.

Agree that most children can achieve more than you'd imagine if they start young. Whether or not you think that's a healthy or desirable path is another question.

HabbaDabba · 05/06/2013 15:30

Asuming that we are talking about the same research Clifton, exposure to music is supposed to help develop a child's neural pathways. That isn't a recommendation to start a 3 year on a serious instrument like the violin. Silly analogy but it's like saying outdoor exercise is good for a toddler so I'm going to train him for the 100m.

CliftonGirl · 05/06/2013 15:31

Hamish, I tried this approach with the younger ones and it appear to be working. But a lot of people, including inlaws think I am a bit mad. :)

OP posts:
CliftonGirl · 05/06/2013 15:32

No, it was definitely about starting violin early.

OP posts:
Rollmops · 05/06/2013 15:33

Attain magazine (independent schools' sector) had an interesting article in their Spring 2013 issue about children learning instruments.

It stated that violin is one of the hardest to learn and should be started at quite early age of six years as it needs very fine motor skills amongst other things.

Starting at 3 is a bit pointless.

HeadsDownThumbsUp · 05/06/2013 15:34

There's all kinds of vague and inconclusive research on early years 'neuroplasticity'. Parents tend to believe whatever research they're already personally invested in believing.

Have you read John Bruer's research?

HeadsDownThumbsUp · 05/06/2013 15:37

Not that the brain isn't 'neuroplastic' (a v. fancy word for adaptable!) but that it remains so over our entire lives, and most of the claims made for 'special windows' are hokum.

Hamishbear · 05/06/2013 15:42

I know something about research going on as I write - will be interested to see results/report. No expert but not sure all complete hokum.

HeadsDownThumbsUp · 05/06/2013 15:44

You would be interested in it, OP, and I'm sure you have read it already if you are interested in scientific research into child developmet

Bruer, The Myth of the First Three Years - 1999, but more up to date than most of the faux neurobiology that gets chucked around in the public sphere. Author's recent over view and statement on reception here:

blogs.kent.ac.uk/parentingculturestudies/files/2011/09/Special-briefing-on-The-Myth.pdf

HeadsDownThumbsUp · 05/06/2013 15:46

There are some theoretically tested stages of learning acquisition for very specific skills - language acquisition, for example, but all research indicates that this is entirely biological, and so long as the child is exposed to language, the brain does what it has to do. No pushiness required.

HabbaDabba · 05/06/2013 15:47

Hamish - Those kids that started music early probably had involved and, dare I say it, pushy parents, not to mention well off parents.

These kids most likely did well in whatever test they were given because of the latter rather than the former.

HabbaDabba · 05/06/2013 16:00

My DS did Suzuki Violin from 5 to 7. During these two years I had a front seat on this whole starting at 3 business. After 1 year DS was playing better than other kids in his age group despite the fact that they had been playing since 3.

I am not saying that my DS is brilliant (he is :) ) I am merely making the point that at the age of 3-5 children lack the motor skills to make significant progress so they spend the next two years playing open strings.

Of course one can point to historical figures who started as toddlers but I suspect that they would have been just as brilliant if they started at 11.

CliftonGirl · 05/06/2013 16:10

Thanks for the link heads down, off to read the article.

OP posts:
guineapiglet · 05/06/2013 16:11

I absolutely loathe the fact that everything is so competitive, with parents setting their kids up to be competitive and 'better' than others from the womb almost, competition to do ' better' all the way through the education system, a useless examination system which pretty much proves that you dont have to be an interesting person or intelligent thinker to 'do better' - just be able to regurgitate prescribed facts for an hour and a half, one that doesn't look at or value individuals for themselves, but rather what they have 'achieved' in a very narrow way.

'But we live in a competitive world' is the counter argument and our kids have got to be prepared. From what I can see competition has resulted in half the world being screwed permanently, with some parts of the world unable to feed themselves, to people in mainland europe without any hope of a job or prospects for themselves or their families. Competition has produced a completely unequal and unjust life for many - its about time we had a different value system, so our kids can be brought up to do what they enjoy, what will make them useful and kind and tolerant. ,< and not pushy>

CliftonGirl · 05/06/2013 16:16

Habba, I prefer "classical" approach to learning violin. I like them to learn how to read music and i cant stand the thought of listening to another "twinkle" (DS1 did it for a few months).

OP posts:
MadeOfStarDust · 05/06/2013 16:19

Mine have "played" the piano since they were 4 - for fun, because we had a piano left to me in my dad's will.

(he was my pushy parent - now trying to be a pushy grandparent from beyond the grave!!)

We have not pushed them to play it other than a reminder every month or so that they get better if they practise.. they are now 10 and 12 one does exams - grade 3 at the end of the month - the other doesn't after hating doing grade1... but they both enjoy playing for fun

I'm always looked at with a peculiar smile when people ask about it - "oh they've been playing for 6/8 years..... and they're ONLY grade 1/3 "
Yeah but they love music and actually enjoy practise.

CliftonGirl · 05/06/2013 16:19

Agree guinea, but unfortunately this is how things are at the moment, it's swim or sink I am afraid.

OP posts:
WilsonFrickett · 05/06/2013 16:25

I completely agree guinea. It's this insistence that Oxbridge = success = money = prestige = daddy hates his job (but loves the money) cycle that utterly depresses me. I have no problem with motivating bright children or instilling a love of learning in children but this grinding view of competition, the world's getting harder - it's only getting harder for a very narrow definition of society.

WilsonFrickett · 05/06/2013 16:26

That's exactly what I mean OP, it's only sink or swim if you see your lifestyle as the only option for your children.

Boomba · 05/06/2013 16:28

OP define 'sink', and define 'swim'

merrymouse · 05/06/2013 16:28

I think that there is as much evidence to show that children benefit from a later start to academics as an early start. I think its one of those areas where researchers tend to look for evidence to prove their beliefs. I would go with the Montessori theory of 'follow the child'.

Presumably parents who use the Suzuki method think that there is some benefit to starting early. However, I would imagine that it is very hard to tell whether children who start early on the violin make better progress than other children who have equally involved parents but don't involve them in formal music till later and/or give them lots of informal musical exposure, because the bigger influence on all these children is parental support and a stable background.

On the other hand, I find it hard to believe that it does a 3 year old harm to learn the violin, or that a 3 year old who hated to play the violin could be cajoled into it.

Similarly, I think there is little evidence to show that a child is better off being taught to read at 4, 6 or 7, although many children are ready to read at 4. (Although I would imagine that not being able to tick the right boxes in school as dictated by the government might put you at a disadvantage.)

I think the biggest influence on success is having loving, confident parents with high expectations and enough food on the table and a roof over your head. After this, a child can do equally well with parents who spend their weekends playing football, reading, getting their children to do extra homework or building dens.

Interestingly, talking of books that get articles about them in Sunday Papers, Sheryl Sandberg argues in 'Leaning In' that girls do well at school because they are 'good' and try to tick all the right boxes because this is what the prevailing culture tells them to do, then fail in the work place, because, after all other skills (taking risks, taking on work that is beyond your current competence, talking confidently) are more important.

OneLittleToddleTerror · 05/06/2013 16:28

I'm quite confused about what you are trying to achieve.

For example, the instruments from 3. Do you want them to enter a conservatory? Or is it oxbridge? I started piano before primary, can't remember what age. I achieved RCM grade 6 by the time I left school. This is because I hated the piano. Never enjoyed it. I can think back and I don't remember I ever practiced between lessons.

My mum was definitely pushy. I don't have a glittering career to show though. Despite being very highly educated. (PhD in engineering from NZ, but a post-doc in a Russell Group university). I don't have a very happy childhood btw. I found my mum very controlling and disapproving. I only felt breathing space when I left home.

PoppyAmex · 05/06/2013 16:29

Just anecdotally...

When I was still working, Hedge Funds and some Investment Banks had the pick of the best graduates from the top (global) universities; most of them wanted to work in these particular fields.

I lost count of the amount of people who, when faced with hundreds of similar CVs, used to discard the ones who listed interests like "Piano" or "Violin" in favour of graduates who played team sports like Rugby or Football.

I remember feeling sorry for those poor graduates who had perfect grades from the best unis and didn't even get an interview because of such a small detail.