DDs school trip and expected attire.....

[BabylonReturns]

Right, I'm perfectly prepared for a roasting/flaming whatever, but please please please understand I'm not posting this to be goady or otherwise.

If you think IABU then I will accept that graciously, I'm asking as I'm really not sure.

Ok, second week back after half term, DDs school (ks2) are going on a trip as part of their religious studies education. The trip costs £5, no problem.

As yet, I am unaware exactly where the trip will be, but have been advised in writing that boys are expected to wear long trousers and girls should wear tights or trousers and will be expected to cover their hair and lower half of their faces in accordance with cultural requirements in a place of worship.

DD isn't very happy about wearing tights or trousers in June, she's very much a summer dress kind of girl regardless of the weather
She certainly isn't happy about covering her face up, doesn't mind her hair being coves as often wears a cap or hat, but really doesn't want to wear a scarf over her face.

So AIBU to make her wear the scarf, and would a mumsnet scarf be ok?? I don't really do scarves so a mn one is all I have! DH is saying he would prefer her not to go at all, and if the roles were reversed, would the cultural wearers of the scarves be asked to remove them to enter our local church?

Again I just want to reiterate I'm not looking for a bun fight regarding religions, I accept that different cultures do different things, and that's fine, but if my dd is expected to do as they do when visiting them in their place of worship, are they expected to do the same and fit in with us in our place of worship?

I'm sure I haven't conveyed this well at all

[cory]

JenaiMorris Tue 28-May-13 17:00:07
"Forget the religion aspect for a moment - your child and her friends are to be guests in this place. They have a particular expectation re what their guests wear.

If you were going to a restaurant after a day on the beach, your husband would expect to put a shirt on. If you were visiting friends with a shoes-off house, you're remove your shoes.

It is about being polite and having the good grace to respect other people's way of doing things. Anything else it just terrible manners."

This. If they were to visit a Japanese or Scandinavian home as part of a school trip she would be very rude to refuse to remove her shoes.

[HoHoHoNoYouDont]

I would double check if the girls do in fact have to wear scarves to cover their faces. If they do and she is uncomfortable then I would do what a poster upthread suggested and withdraw her from that part of the trip/study.

[cory]

We are a church visiting family (dh being an archaeologist) and I used to watch ds like a hawk to make sure that baseball cap didn't go on again after we've entered.

[TheBigJessie]

I also never knew it was preferable to have heads covered in church.

I can see how you could live a life not picking up on that, but how could anyone conclude that covered hair is against Christian dress code?

Across the whole of them: the Christian churches range from "please just come in" to very covered-up. But none of them are of the "it is your duty to take clothes off" persuasion, unless you're wearing a slogan t-shirt.

[Viviennemary]

If you object to these restrictions and if she doesn't feel like covering her face, head, legs then I think you are within your rights not to send her on the trip.

[TheBigJessie]

cory sorry, I was thinking of the women's rules only, because we're talking about a dd. I clear forgot to clarify about the rules for men.

Bugger.

[SoupDragon]

Give her a pair of leggings to wear under her dress - she can just take them off when the actual requirement to wear them is over.

Alternatively, make her understand that other religions have different requirements and she needs to show respect on this occasion and follow them. Perhaps see it as a lesson in tolerance and understanding.

Remind her that she only has to conform for a day - other girls have to conform all the time.

[FreyaSnow]

If a cultural rule exists for reasons you don't agree with, your ethical disagreement with that rule may be more important to you than your decision to show 'respect' to somebody else. You can decide not to go without being rude to the people who hold the rule. The whole thing could be avoided by the school organising a visit to a different mosque.

[Justfornowitwilldo]

Where is it that she has to cove the lower half of her face?

[Mandy2003]

As an alternative to trousers I'm sure a maxi dress would be fine, nice and cool and summery. I understand about the head and hair being covered in Islam but I am absolutely certain the niqab is not compulsory. But maybe the reason is that the Mosque they are visiting is a different branch of Islam in which it is required for girls/women to do this?

I remember as a child visiting St Peters in Rome and having to cover my head and shoulders with a shawl out of respect for their traditions.

[Jux]

I think your dd may not mind covering her face if all the others do. It would be an interesting trip, and a perfect lesson in how to be tolerant and respectful of others' beliefs.

[thebody]

I wouldn't agree or pay for a school trip until I knew exactly where and why my child was going. How on earth can you make any judgement on her safety if tou don't know the location.

My dds are now teens and both doing GCSE religious studies. They would not be happy covering their bodies to go into any religious building so wouldn't be in the trip.

You can't send her and not follow their rules, that's rude.

[mizu]

My DH is Muslim and while your DD will have to cover her hair - and probably take off her shoes - I am sure she will not have to cover part of her face.

[FreyaSnow]

I've been in Orthodox churches on school trips and the girls were not required to cover their heads.

On parade days in church when I was a child, all the cubs wore caps.

Women priests in the Anglican church have never been asked to wear any kind of head wear in church as the preferable thing to do. Birettas are worn in church by men in the Lutheran, Catholic and Anglican churches. It is not that the rules in the UK have been relaxed and that head wear for women and no head wear for men is preferable. Those rules in the UK have not existed for a really, really long time.

[ChazsBrilliantAttitude]

The niqab is absolutely not compulsory in Islam and pre-pubescent girls are not required to cover their hair either. Young girls might cover their hair when going to the mosque out of respect.

See the dress code here in relation to children under 12
www.centralmosque.org.uk/1/about-us/visiting-the-mosque

[curryeater]

Soupdragon, there is a sanctimonious tone to your post that I find a bit annoying.

"nderstand that other religions have different requirements and she needs to show respect on this occasion and follow them. Perhaps see it as a lesson in tolerance and understanding."

I don't think we have to take part in customs which [we feel] debase us to show "tolerance". Tolerance (a highly problematic concept) can take place at arms' length (part of the problem).

"Remind her that she only has to conform for a day - other girls have to conform all the time."

The subtext to this sort of solemn portentousness is often "Suffering = good." I hate this sort of thing. Why should all girls nod wide-eyed in admiration that other girls are inhibited and restricted? She should learn about it, but she should not have to take part in it to learn about it

[Jux]

Mandy, yes, when I was a child the Catolic still required women to wear mantillas. I still have mine, though I stopped believing years ago. They would have expected every woman to cover her head before entering. And men to remove their headgear.

[MrsTerryPratchett]

Check again with the school. Another person here with Muslim/Christian/Jewish friends and family who has never heard of girls of 8 being told to cover their faces to enter a religious place in the UK.

[thebody]

Curryeater, spot on post.

[Hummuschocolate]

Like others have said, wait til you've found out a bit more information before not letting her ago. She can always but leggings/tights under her dress then taken them off when not needed.

No Church would ask people to 'uncover' except perhaps to take hats off. Your 'if the roles were reversed' argument doesn't really work.

[starfishmummy]

Covering the face sounds unusual - I have visited mosques, gurdwaras, Hindu and Jain temples and whilst I have been asked to cover my head and remove shoes I have never had to cover my face.

Would a long cotton skirt suffice for her legs if it is warm weather (today trousers would seem fine!!)?

[TheHumancatapult]

I would check yourself dd and ds have done various trips and dd has never been asked to cover her face and neither have I .and I have been to various mosques and temples

As for the clothing I would use it as chance talk to dd about tolerance and respecting someone else's faith .
Dd at 10 accepts when we attend weddings at a mosque ( we have friebds both sikih and muslim ) that now older needs cover her head but will often opt for a long ankle length skirt over trousers . Though they do not expect her to keep in at party after as she is still pre puberty but sometimes does . And meh I keep mine I. Through party as its curtesy

[Theas18]

Bunfight over nothing.

Wear summer dress. Take joggers or leggings. Pop them on just before going on trip and remove after, ditto MN scarf.

revoltingpeasant she may have " very definite ideas" about dressing but she also needs to learn to respect other peoples beliefs

[Floggingmolly]

What a fuss about nothing... I'll bet you anything you like, op, that there is no covering of the face involved.