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Original poster

Nick Ross on rape - warning you may feel the need to punch a wall

484 replies

DuelingFanjo · 25/05/2013 23:09

sorry it's a daily mail link.

I am full of rage, particularly his comments on aggravated rape. Wtf. Presumably he means that there are situations in which he will not be able to stop himself from raping someone because it is aggravated. This has made me so angry. Please they'll me he no longer works for the BBC. I truly hope he loses his career over this. How the hell are we supposed to educate people who think like this?

OP posts:
WorraLiberty · 26/05/2013 13:32

What a fucking arse Angry

Bowlersarm · 26/05/2013 13:32

c999875 at what stage is penetration permission given or withdrawn?

LRDtheFeministDragon · 26/05/2013 13:34

I really don't think it is difficult to see that if a person is frozen and passing out, they are probably not in a position to consent.

The thing about saying 'yes' specifically is a bit of a red herring IMO. I expect most if not all of us sometimes have sex when we do not explicitly say to our partners 'yes, darling, tonight, I consent to sex'. My DH can usually work it out from the removal of clothes and the kissing and so on, and the fact I'm not pissed out of my mind so probably know what I'm doing.

OTOH if I were so drunk I were passing out, I would expect any decent person to feel a moment of 'shit, I wonder, does she want to do this? Hmm, she isn't making any move towards it ... could that be a sign?'

They are two very different scenarios, and in the second one, the fact the bloke isn't bothering to try to work out whether he has consent, is inexcusable.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 26/05/2013 13:34

Bit of a personal question isn't it, bowlers?

Doesn't it depend on the individual?

Bowlersarm · 26/05/2013 13:36

Saying 'yes' LRD may be a red herring to you. To most men I would think it wasn't a red herring.

NumTumDeDum · 26/05/2013 13:36

Consent can be withdrawn at any time. Proving it is the difficult bit.

Bowlersarm · 26/05/2013 13:37

Well them LRD how the hell are they supposed to know?

Bowlersarm · 26/05/2013 13:38

Well then that's crap num

NumTumDeDum · 26/05/2013 13:39

The law requires the perpetrator to be sure. If he isn't he should stop. There are two issues here- the woman being clear in her mind it is rape and then the issue of whether she can prove that.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 26/05/2013 13:40

How do you mean bowlers?

You mean you struggle to tell when someone is half passed out and frozen, that they're not consenting? Confused

Why?

And why is it 'crap' for someone to withdraw consent? It's normal. 'Ouch, DH, that hurts, could we stop?'. Normal.

C999875 · 26/05/2013 13:40

Bowlarsarm. When a women says No. When she stays "Stop". Or if the women shows no desire to have sex. x

LRDtheFeministDragon · 26/05/2013 13:41

(And no, please don't read into my use of the conditional. I'm quite happy with 'stop now' too, and so are men who aren't rapists, IMO.)

GoshAnneGorilla · 26/05/2013 13:41

Vile, vile misogyny. It is hatespeech against 50% of the population.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 26/05/2013 13:42

It is that, gosh.

It's not exactly flattering to the vast majority of men who aren't rapey twits, too.

TheImpracticalCat · 26/05/2013 13:49

Uh, this might be a bit of a cheeky question, but could someone who has written a complaint about this article make it available for copy and pasting? I want as many voices as possible to be heard on this, but to be honest I am so distressed by the article that my brain is not working coherently enough to write an effective complaint. I would probably just end up with a list of Very Bad Words.

Bowlersarm · 26/05/2013 13:53

Ok. I can see that when both parties are sober then it is more easily answered. But when they are both slaughtered, there has to be a question about it, doesn't it?

limitedperiodonly · 26/05/2013 13:57

bowlersarm Don't panic. Having to explain how the hell they knew the woman was consenting isn't really a worry for a man in the situation flip has described or the majority of men acquitted at trial.

He would have said he believed she was consenting and a jury would probably have believed him in the absence of physical injury or proof that she said no, which is hard because most sex happens when it's just the two of you and you haven't got a tape recorder handy.

Who knows, he might have even believed it himself Hmm

In this case flip didn't believe she'd been raped. But it's perfectly possibly for a woman in an acquittal to firmly believe she was. And she would be right too.

Sorry for the experience flip.

Bowlersarm · 26/05/2013 14:02

I know you're (drily) laughing at melimited but thank goodness for that.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 26/05/2013 14:03

No, bowlers, there doesn't.

I have had sex while very, very drunk. I have had sex with a very drunk partner. I have not had sex with a very drunk partner who couldn't manage to slur out some kind of 'erm .. like ... should we be doing this? You're sure ... ok then ...'.

Frankly, I think in most people I know, it is more ingrained to check that consent is present when both people are drunk. Which is the way it should be.

Alcohol makes people stupid; it does not, to my mind, make them rapists.

limitedperiodonly · 26/05/2013 14:07

If I was a rapist bowlers I'd be thanking something for the capacity of juries to think the best of my actions, but it wouldn't be goodness.

CrapsWithBears · 26/05/2013 14:09

When I was a lot younger, I went off the rails in a major way. drinking, drugs, sleeping around etc. I ended up dating a guy for a couple of months. I was hanging out with my mates and him and we'd bough a couple of bottles of vodka to share, I remember opening the bottles and drinking and then the next thing I remember is waking up to him having sex with me.

A friend at the time explained I'd been to hospital and I'd got that drunk the an ambulance driver lent them money for a taxi to get home. They'd went back to my boyfriends house and my friend had left me with him whilst she went to have sex with her boyfriend. She reassured me I definitely said yes, but I have NO memory whatsoever of anything that happened that night. I was definitely not able to consent. It's really fucked up my relationships since then and I self-harmed several times. I broke down and told my family once, but lied about what actually happened because I didn't want to go to the police.

That was about 7 years ago. I absolutely regret not going to the police after it happened and I still think about it all the time. Stories like this always make me question whether it was my fault or not, but I know full well I didn't do anything to deserve it.

Bowlersarm · 26/05/2013 14:10

LRD you are going to say no. But what you said last, does that mean that no man, whilst drunk, is a rapist?

LRDtheFeministDragon · 26/05/2013 14:13
Confused

The what?

That's a failure of basic logic.

'Alcohol does not make people rapists' means 'alcohol does not make people into rapists'. It doesn't mean 'alcohol prevents men from being rapists' or 'alcohol makes men who were rapists stop raping'.

Why would you imagine my statement had any connection to yours?

limitedperiodonly · 26/05/2013 14:15

craps I let out a laugh at this bit She reassured me I definitely said yes.

Not laughing at you. It just depressingly confirmed my belief that you don't have to be in possession of a penis to support rape.

And before anyone points it out: most people in possession of a penis know not to stick it where it's not wanted.

TheImpracticalCat · 26/05/2013 14:15

A rapist, while drunk, is still a rapist. A man who is not a rapist is not a rapist under any circumstances. HTH.