To get wound up at cycle races on public roads

[Ilovemyself]

It is so annoying to me when I am on a journey and come across a gaggle of cyclists on an organised race. Quite often they are 3 or 4 abreast and all over the road.

Racing on the public highway foe motorists is a serious offence. Why are cyclists allowed to race.

"The stat that really makes the difference however is the fact that the Dutch cycled 10 billion miles in 2010 compared to 3 billion for the Brits (over 3 times greater distance). So yes, we may kill as many or slightly less cyclists but every driver in the Netherlands will come across a cyclist more frequently than here in the UK"

You entirely ignore the huge structural difference - the many, many miles of dedicated cycleways in Holland, especially in all the major urban areas where the huge majority of those miles are done. If you adjust for tat I suspect you find that the UK motorist has to deal with much more cyclists on the same roads, which makes their record even more remarkable.

And IMO motoring deaths per 100,000 cars or population is a perfectly valid comparison, and its been used for many years. I suspect the reason you dislike it is it disproves your narrative that British motorists are wankers, instead it shows that the problem is more likely to be with cyclists.

"Zo. Maag ik U iets heele belangrijke vraagen? Bent U een duifje of een schaatje? Sinds geen fietsen want een duifje maaken. Meerstal"

I understand the words, but not the meaning of the idiom.

Its Noord Hollands/Amsterdam slang. Your clue is in the use of "duifje" in conjunction with "schaatje"...

I think you are missing part of the Dutch cycling culture Lazyjaney. Urban commuting is totally different from road race/triathlon training done at speed. And those cyclists have to cycle out from their urban areas to quieter roads. Those quieter roads, not that far out from urban centres, are far more devoid of traffic than equivalent UK roads, not least because most Dutch drivers know how frowned upon it is to be blocking those roads by cars when more important users doing more healthy activities and training for competition success want to use them.

I know the roads around Utrecht extremely well; cycling along the Maas and Waal is an almost traffic free experience. Even from Bunnik out, it is very quiet. Likewise, if you were to go somewhere like Overijssel on a Sunday, its almost impossible to drive faster than 20mph because of the number of cyclists, including families out for recreational rides. You feel very, very out of place in a car.

Its a completely different culture, and one which doesn't really share the mass road rage/intolerance of other members of society thing which seems so prevalent in the UK. Obviously you get wanker drivers in NL, but its far less frequent. And of course, the legal system means a driver is automatically considered to be at fault unless the contrary is proven, if they hit a cyclist or a pedestrian.

Someone will have said this but still: roads are not just for car users. They are for all forms of transport, whether that's four wheeled, four legged, two wheeled, three wheeled or two legged. Get over yourself.

YABVVVVU
The public roads are for all road users. They are an excellent resource for cycling. Learn a bit of patience, also look out for local information regarding cycling events and take a different route if possible. Would you prefer cycling to only be available to an elite who can afford to use the very few velodromes in this country?
I am a driver. I can appreciate that there is a time implication in sharing the road with other slower road users, but some driver's attitudes and behaviours I've witnessed are truly appalling and show zero consideration for anyone else but themselves, including other drivers, and endanger others without a second thought - until getting caught in an avoidable accident of course. (I am not referring to you in the slightest, OP, regarding this, just wish there was a lot less self-centredness to all road users). Cycling is a great sport.

Please all read the original post. It is NOT anti cyclist in any way. It simply refers to those that ride in a dangerous way by appearing to be racing ( even if this is not technically what they are doing)

The road outside my house is part of the social and environmental location I live in. It doesn't exist in some kind of separate sphere for car drivers. You're not in a video game. You may want to drive down it at 30mph, and you can do, as long as nobody is walking, cycling, riding a horse, driving slowly down it and you have good visibility in front of you.

I think drivers need to see driving up to the speed limit as the exception rather than the rule, and accept they are sharing the road with everyone else.

OP, sorry if the thread has gone off on a bit of a tangent from your original post, but I do think the issues raised about cycling generally are important.

Lazyjaney I really don't see how a comparison of road traffic death rates in different countries can tell us anything at all about whose fault the accidents were when they occurred

Needanewnickname. No problem. It is just frustrating when people say I am unreasonable as cyclists have the same right to be there. I never said they didn't !

As a motorcyclist I see the same issues - it is just normally easier for me than a cyclist as I can accelerate out of the way if possible.

OP - I'm afraid it's a bit thin to use the collective term 'gaggle' and say they wound you up, and THEN say it isn't an anti-cycling thread at all, because they were not behaving in a way you found acceptable??

I suspect that many experienced cyclists have to put up with sooo much dangerous shit from drivers that some random poster being whiney-arsed about being delayed doesn't even touch the sides I'm afraid.

Pan - it is always those that appear to be racing and riding in a "gaggle" are the ones that are the ones that seem to have no concept of what is going on around them.

I will repeat I have no issues with cycling in general, but when they appear to have no consideration for other road users - especially given the fact that they are less protected - they are a menace.

It will always be the car driving that gets the blame if there is an accident, but it is not always their fault

Yes, it's a proportionate thing though isn't it? fwiw I have never seen a group/peleton of riders riding in the manner you describe, and I live in semi-rural land where lots of 'rides' take place. Four abreast is largely unheard of, and if it takes place it would be temporary, I am sure.

But really, from 'gaggle' we move to 'menace' ffs.

And it will always return to the issue of perception - as a daily commuter in heavy traffic of about 130 miles per week in all weather conditions, the use of the word 'menace' is pretty risible in the 'bike threat to drivers' discourse.

< and I am also a driver and a former rider of a grunty 650 SE motorbike>

I'd diagnose a case of denial about your views of cyclists. Any chance to whine on-line about these bullying cyclists. sob.

With respect.

I am not talking about threat to drivers. I am talking about a threat to them selves!

yeaah..thanks for the concern..really..but I wouldn't worry. Cyclists can make their own decisions about safety, unencumbered by drivers (who are our biggest danger) 'advice'. Don't worry your head about it.

Equally, cyclists could say 'wtf! You're riding the death trap that is a motorcycle? And you feel entitled to advise us about safety? Get outta here!' iyswim.

We could go on like this forever. Lol. I just don't want it on my conscience if I end up knocking someone off and hurting them because they are not paying attention and riding like idiots.

Crumbs. So it isn't about road safety. It's about salvaging your conscience. Cheers for that responsibility!!

do you see the connections of v patronising attitude tinged with a self concern that led you into the quicksand over on the Feminist section at all?

but yes forever is a long time.

It can be both. I don't want to see someone hurt and I don't want to be the one to hurt them either.

If I see a pedestrian behaving erratically, I slow down and give them more space. Same with horses that look skittish. Same with cars that are behaving oddly. Same with cyclists who are behaving oddly or struggling with high winds. Doing that makes it pretty unlikely I'll hit anyone, whether I'm driving, cycling, or on a horse. If in doubt, give space, regardless of the reasons that you suspect may be the cause of the behaviour.

Incidentally, I've never seen a group of cyclists "racing", aside from athletes in professional races and kids in parks. When I see cyclists being dicks, they tend to be lone riders in urban areas - because some people are dicks (which is independent of their means of transport). I see plenty of drivers and horse riders behaving like dicks, too.

Pan, hello! :) I remember you from last year's TdF and Olympic threads Isn't Cav looking good in the Giro? So pleased his new train is starting to look up to scratch!

Hi evil! I was really unsure about his change of team, and how possibly he could reproduce the performance with new mates so quickly! He had to drop his team in one of the earlier sprints, from a long way out didn't he, but still muscled his way in. But OPQuick seem to be getting in line.
Was a bit at suspending the stage today. Bad weather in the hills? In May??

Crazy, isn't it? Still, better to suspend it than risk accidents, I suppose.

I was worried about OPQS too, but if they can avoid further mechanical issues it looks like the riders are getting used to it. He's had a couple of blinding runs - I'm looking forward to seeing him racing Peter Sagan.

The young E. European? He was in and around for the last few Tours. I think he is 23 and will only get better. Comp for Cav.

Please all read the original post. It is NOT anti cyclist in any way. It simply refers to those that ride in a dangerous way by appearing to be racing ( even if this is not technically what they are doing)

I find, as a driver, I get far more worried about the number of cars that appear to be racing each other. It really is a problem around here, the police seem totally inept in dealing with it, and boy racers (often in middle age) abound, both in town and the countryside.

Is anyone watching the Tour of Belgium on eurosport? Suits a totally different type of rider to the Giro, more power rider types.

He's Slovakian, I think - really exciting to watch. Definitely one for the future! I was impressed with Navardauskas (sp?) the other day too, he looked really strong and was very pleasant in interview too, which goes a long way!

Less, I've not been watching ToB, but cycling in general is always good to watch! I'm a relatively recent newcomer to following the professionals, but am really looking forward to this year's Tour.

I'd guess the Belgium ride as it so flat is made for the 'diesel riders', like Wiggo. I did catch a bit of the Tour of California this week, but it was perma sunshine on perfect roads, it didn't seem to..well..count!