anti-FFs and pro choice?

[DidILeaveTheIronOn]

I have seen some, not loads, but a definite number of extremely anti FF people on here. The ones that think FF mothers are irresponsible and owe their child more

Similarly, there are a lot of pro choice (abortion) people on here

I just don't really understand how you can be pro choice but against women choosing for themselves how to feed their baby. Shouldn't women be allowed to choose what to do with their bodies in every way conceivable?

Aware is lots more complicated than this, just wanted to open up a bit of a debate (NOT BUNFIGHT)

(Am EBF-ing and pro choice but curious)

Booyhoo you are quite right

If there are no pro choice anti-FFs on here (or indeed in RL) then fine,
but I struggle to believe that is not the case

Yes BF involves another person, but how can you say abortion doesn't? Does in my view, whether it is an independent life or not. Also ending a life (autonomous or otherwise) is surely more serious than choosing between two adequate (at least in this country) feeding methods.
I accept some people will view 'when does life begin' issue differently though. I repeat I am pro choice, regardless.

Even if there are no people in my Venn diagram, isn't the argument interesting on a hypothetic level anyway

Oh and people telling me off for starting a fight, please get a grip, are we not allowed to discuss emotive subjects? Am I forcing you to read the thread?

hypothetical

I am pro-choice. I am pro-breastfeeding, but I am NOT anti-ff. Just to get that out of the way.

But, as was discussed on a thread over the weekend, you can be pro-choice and still believe that abortion is a selfish and horrible choice that you would never make for yourself (disclaimer: this is not what I believe). Being pro-choice or pro-life is not about your personal morals as such, it is about where you think the state should intervene in restricting women's choices. This may or may not accord with the moral views you have on such choices as they apply to yourself. So unless you are talking about extreme anti-ffers who would want legislation to compel bf-ing, not just judge-pantness at the decision, the two positions are actually, at an intellectual level, totally compatible.

oh oh please can we incoporate whether you can be a feminist and only recognise cis women and whether you like marmite as well to the debate

Celery Drwitch. That needs adding too

Can anyone state it is right for a child to starve to death if for any reason its mother can not breastfeed?

We can prefer breast feeding while still acknowledging that formula feeding has a place same as we can acknowledge that although abortion is not ideal its still an option for some people.

Amanda that is interesting
To me, though, it's as much a moral debate as one about legislation

Jacks but does the child have to be starving

Isn't it enough for the mother just to not want to BF??

Same as it could be seen as perfectly ok for a woman to abort to keep up her 'party lifestyle' (as quoted from other thread)

A big reason of my being pro choice is that I do not want babies brought up under substandard conditions by parents who didn't want them as I believe would happen if we banned abortion.

Now I don't happen to have very strong views on infant feeding.

But I think it would be possible to logically combine the two. Not psychologically possible for me, but certainly logically.

Yes, it can be a moral debate. I just wanted to point out that the two positions aren't as mutually contradictory as you seem to think. I think that there are probably a lot of people out there who think abortion should be legal, but feel a bit uneasy about it. They would probably still identify as pro-choice. Those same people could easily feel that ff should be available, but feel vaguely uneasy about those who choose not to bf. So they could demonstrate the same feelings as the woman you quoted a few posts back.

Also, you could argue that is a woman's choice whether to have a child, but once she has chosen to do so, you must do the best possible for that child. That would be another way of reconciling the two positions.

As I said, I am pro choice but not anti-ffing, but I don't think it's that intellectually difficult to weave the two positions.

You seem to personally feel the dependent foetus does/should have the same rights as a born, independent baby, however many people do not.

Also, carrying through a pregnancy has significantly higher risks overall than choosing to BF or not, up to and including death of the mother, not to mention the arrival of a baby afterward that will need at least 18 years of care/support (and realistically much more), with massive impact on the woman's life, and any other family members.

"I just don't really understand how you can be pro choice but against women choosing for themselves how to feed their baby. Shouldn't women be allowed to choose what to do with their bodies in every way conceivable?"

yes, but many women don't get a clear and proper choice. They are bombarded with shit that convinces them that feeding from the breast is weird/sexual/just the same as formula.

As with anything choice should be informed. Just deciding you don't want to breastfeed because someone told you formula is just as good is not an informed choice.
Just like having an abortion because someone told you you should isn't an informed choice.

oh and PS - Abortion is legal. Remember.

I am pro IVF and pro abortion. Some people have had both you know.

Solari - I don't really think of it in terms of rights for the unborn baby (and tbh i never really thought a baby had a 'right' to be BF per se), I just think that, probably after a certain number of weeks gestation, that the baby is very much a life form and our choices affect it in a similar way as they affect a live baby

I agree that's not everyone's feeling, and neither should it be.

As I stated earlier its for everyone to decide what is right for them.

Pro life people dont believe women should have that choice so if you put anti ff on the same level then they would want it banning completely. Once you put any conditions on something ie its ok in this situation then you are giving people a choice.

I'm pro ff. I don't care how people feed their baby frankly.

I used to be pro-choice. Now I have a child with downs and when I see people 'TFMR' (termination for medical reasons) I find it hard to reconcile this with my experience.

dueling agree with the need for an informed choice. But provided this is the case, I feel a woman's right to BF or not, should be respected and not questioned.

Obviously it's hard to know what is an informed choice and what isn't. Perhaps the same could be said about abortion, though I expect people would take issue with that

I don't think a baby has the 'right' to be BF. But the care of a living, breathing baby is far more emotive to some than the right of a woman not to carry a foetus that is totally dependent on her body, with all the massive risks that entails.

Again, I'm just theorising about how the two views could possibly coexist in some. I've never met anyone who is both anti-FF and pro-choice, and I am not myself.

^
Should clarify, I mean 'living' as in 'living outside the womb'/born.

"oh and PS - Abortion is legal. Remember."

Not in the whole UK it's not. It's not legal in Northern Ireland.

PLEASE CAN A PRO CHOICE MILITANT ANTI FF COME HERE NOW

I wish to talk with you

(hears echoes)

Oh I had forgotten about NI. What do people do, travel to where it IS legal?