Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

To think that just because I'm pro-life doesn't mean I hate feminism?

812 replies

TinkerSailerSoldierSpy · 18/05/2013 12:38

Friend and I were having a discussion, I'm 18 weeks pregnant, and it was a bit of an inconvenient surprise, considering I've started a new job just 2 months ago.I mentioned that it wasn't going to look good, me taking maternity leave after not even being there for a year, and she suggested perhaps considering there was no dad on the scene and my new job, I should terminate. I felt a bit uncomfortable but told her that I could never do that as I'm pro life and view it as killing a child. She then proceeded to stare at me like I had an extra head and ask me why in a shocked voice. I explained my reasons and views and we got into an arguement about it, the usual stuff, what about in cases of rape and if the woman's not financially able to support the child, to which I countered but is it right for a woman to get an abortion just because she wants to continue a party lifestyle? And she stormed out the house shouting that I was misogynistic and women have the right to their own bodies. Let me be clear, I certainly would never stop anyone from making their decision about an abortion, I just can't seem to get over the idea of it, it repulses me. But I wouldn't judge a woman who got one. I understand the other viewpoint but I can't agree with it myself, and in all other respects I would say i was very liberal about womans rights. When I mentioned it to other friend she said it was my views but they were quite outdated and misogynistic. Are they? I need advice, should I apologize to friend A?

OP posts:
garlicgrump · 18/05/2013 23:29

many feminists I know would not consider abortion themselves but would never judge another woman for having one

Yes - that's being pro-choice.

See, this is the harm that dishonest slogan, "pro-life", does. It makes people suppose the opposition's as controlling as them; trying to push a 'pro-abortion' agenda. Not so. Pro-choice means pro CHOICE.

OxfordBags · 18/05/2013 23:33

Anti-abortion nuts are all about the grief porn, and the needs of semi-sociopathic inadequate personalities to create some smokescreen appearance of caring around themselves, IMHO. Far from being all about caring, the dignity of life, human rights, love, all of those very wonderful things, look at what they say, look at what they focus on, look at what they want, look at what they prioritise: the misogynist judging of women and their lifestyles, as though only feckless young slags who think abortion is as easy as taking a paracetamol ever get terminations, talk of women getting rid of babies so they can keep partying or whatever (totally overlooking the fact that why someone has an abortion is none of their fucking business), the way they get upset at the idea that abortion might not cause suffering to women who have them, the innate belief that women do not have the final say in what happens to their own bodies, or that motherhood must be an inevitable outcome for all women, the fixation in their literature and rhetoric about the more gruesome aspects of termination; tiny broken bodies and so on, way beyond what could be considered even remotely reasonable as part of their argument, going on and on about embryos and foetuses as though they are exactly the same as living humans outside the womb, the casual throwing about of adoption as a magical cure-all, as though the pregnancy matters not a jot to the woman forced to maintain a pregnancy she does not and can not go through with, the absolute refusal or inability to consider what might happen to an unwanted child if it is born to parents or a parent who is resentful, unwilling, perhaps unable to parent decently, whose life is ruined as a result of having an unwanted child. Even if they do a decent job, why should they have to? It's very easy to focus your attention on the unborn and try to kid yourself and others that it means you are a caring person. But what really matters is reality, who exists right here and now, and their needs. There's something truly fucked-up about a person who cares less about real people than a bundle of cells.

The world is so full of damaged, unhappy people, making others unhappy because they were parented badly, even by parents who actively wanted them; why introduce more of this into society? I'm not suggesting that having an unwanted child automatically would make someone parent badly, but it's not the best start for anyone involved. If people truly care about the rights of children, they want children to have the best starts in life , the best parents possible, to be wanted and loved, etc.

Life is not about everyone possible being born, it is about taking good care of those who do get to be born.

OxfordBags · 18/05/2013 23:36

Good point, Garlic. I cannot imagine ever having an abortion, and am lucky I have never (yet) been in a scenario that would require that decision BUT what I would do has zero bearing on what anyone else has the right and need to do. CHOICE is the key here.

StuntGirl · 18/05/2013 23:41

"I don't see why a baby can't be adopted by someone desperate to have a baby"

Because 'just having a baby' is not like picking up a loaf of bread from the supermarket. It is pregnancy, childbirth, agony, pain, potential illness, potential death, permanant changes to your physical, mental and emotional wellbeing.

I am not going to go through that against my will for anyone, born or unborn.

CoalDustWoman · 18/05/2013 23:42

If you can't imagine a scenario where you might consider not wanting to continue a pregnancy, then I would suggest working on your empathy and imagination skills.

What about the situation I mentioned above? Where a stranger staying in an adjoining hotel room came into your room and penetrated you whilst you were sleeping because he "thought" you were his girlfriend? If you became pregnant from that situation, what would you do? What would your thought processes be?

CoalDustWoman · 18/05/2013 23:45

And he was found not guilty of rape, so the I'll-say-that-rape-victims-are-excluded-so-I-don't-sound-totally-heartless thing won't work.

Oxford - great rant!

MoistPlinth · 18/05/2013 23:47

I am against abortion but would not judge a woman for having one. Although I find abortions over the 12 week limit particularly uncomfortable...it's a proper little baby then and not just a cluster of cells. I don't think my views are outdated, I just find it hard to deal with the concept of killing a little thing (not saying that anyone else finds this easy either...it's a tricky one)

I think YABU about the party lifestyle comment.

YANBU to have the general opinion that abortion is wrong - everyone can have their own opinion and you haven't tried to force your views on anyone.

MoistPlinth · 18/05/2013 23:48

I would just like to add that I was raped and had to consider the possibility that I was pregnant...

StuntGirl · 18/05/2013 23:51

"It's a proper little baby then and not just a cluster of cells"

No it isn't. It looks recognisably like a human baby but it is still underdeveloped and cannot survive on it's own.

Blistory · 18/05/2013 23:51

I think you'll find that most feminists who believe "as early as possible, as late as necessary" are only arguing that the woman has the right to terminate the pregnancy, not to thereafter terminate a viable foetus. So a woman in week 30 has every right to request the pregnancy be terminated but it doesn't mean that the baby cannot be delivered alive.

And late term terminations are extremely rare. I can't imagine there are many women who WANT one but there are women who NEED one, for whatever reason.

And I'm a little tired of hearing how a termination has to be a traumatic, emotional experience that scars women. Women shouldn't be made to feel guilty or less of a woman for being able to cope with a termination. Ending an unwanted pregnancy is very different from miscarrying a wanted pregnancy. Many women are simply relieved but it's not socially acceptable to admit that.

So in answer to the OP, my view is that you cannot be a feminist and not support the right of a woman to terminate a pregnancy.

Bogeyface · 19/05/2013 00:02

Garlic my main problem with my experience having my son is reconciling my pre birth thoughts of "Oh, I'll just have it adopted" with the knowledge of how I felt once I had had him.

At 17 with no experience of babies, no urge to be a mother and no ability to care for him properly, I loved him. The second I saw him I would have died for him. Thankfully, when I decided (decided! it was a done deal the second he was born) to take him home, my mum helped and supported us both. I was very lucky and so was DS. But many young women dont have that support and it terrifies me that the "just have it adopted" view would end up with many young women taking home babies that they love but cant care for. Or back to the "Well, he needs a proper family so we are taking your baby and giving him to Mr and Mrs Wantababy".

Its going back to the bad old days.

I will never ever forget that day though. I cant describe it, but "just have the baby adopted" turns my stomach every time I see it.

mathanxiety · 19/05/2013 00:43

I think it's really important to stop slinging mud at each other over this issue, to drop all references to 'convenience' and 'lifestyle' and even 'rape' and 'forced birth'. It's important to dial down the rhetoric and find some way to come together to improve life for all women beyond anything we recognise now. Until life is changed drastically to the point where keeping the baby is always going to be the easiest option there will be abortion. There has always been abortion, whether legal or illegal, and there always will be as long as the odds are stacked against women and for money and those who tend to have it.

We should focus on the hopes we have in common. We should make it a priority to seek the welfare of all women. Nobody else is going to look out for us but ourselves -- that is the one lesson that history teaches us.

mathanxiety · 19/05/2013 00:44

By 'rape' I do not mean to imply that rape is 'alleged rape'. I used the quotation marks to quote.

garlicgrump · 19/05/2013 00:46

YY, Bogey: the shocking contrast between "Just have it adopted" and the realities of birth; flooding emotions; the terror of either having your baby taken from you or facing lonely destitution with a helpless child. I'm so glad you were supported by your parents. Many aren't, and that's such a dreadful risk force on a young woman ...

Bogeyface · 19/05/2013 00:53

What really pisses me off is that many of the people who moan about the blight that young single mothers are on society Hmm are the same pro-lifers!

If the support was there then you wouldnt have young women struggling to bring up their children or seeking abortions because they cant go it alone.

SolidGoldBrass · 19/05/2013 01:05

Again: 'pro-lifers' hate women. The more aggressive and involved they are in anti-abortion activism, the more they hate women. Their position is not even about 'loving the unborn', it's about wanting women to be legally designated subhuman and placed in the ownership and under the control of men. These are the people who will state, publicly, that women don't get pregnant if it's 'real rape'. The next time you hear (or indeed spread) some scaremongering shit about drinking alcohol in pregnancy, it's come from these people, who want it to be illegal for women of childbearing age to drink alcohol, in case they are pregnant. These are also the people who want to ban sex education that isn't abstinence-based, the morning after pill, contraception, state-funded childcare and any state assistance to single mothers. None of it's about 'loving life'.

mathanxiety · 19/05/2013 01:06

Similarly, arguments about what is or isn't a human being or how long a foetus would survive without a mother are moot -- there are many grandparents who couldn't survive without 24/7 support from their carers after all, and many people with disabilities who also couldn't survive without constant support. If you were giving birth to a puppy or kitten then having it taken away for adoption or the prospect of taking care of it mightn't be as daunting. The visceral No Way feeling that arises when the idea of adoption is proposed indicates that the matter is not as black and white as it may seem. I think a position like StuntGirl's is quite extreme and doesn't really take into account the gut reaction of most women when faced with a pregnancy that poses a problem. The same women in different circumstances rejoice if the prospect for the baby seems positive, and are happy to call it a baby and hear their friends and family do the same.

Society can accommodate all pov and help should always be available. I agree with this comment from TheGreyLady.

Angloamerican · 19/05/2013 01:14

OP, you have nothing to apologise for. Your friend, however, does. I am dumbfounded that she thought it appropriate to suggest to a woman - who is almost halfway through a pregnancy - that perhaps she should kill her child.

Because this is the crux of the issue: abortion is killing a child. How you reconcile the notions of a woman's autonomy over her body versus a child's right to life is your business (general you). But don't kid yourself a that abortion is anything other than killing a child. These ridiculous "bunch of cells" arguments do nothing but reduce the standard of debate to junior-school levels. Be pro-choice all you like, but be adult enough to say that you support a woman's choice to kill her child.

Bogeyface · 19/05/2013 01:16

SGB I read the "real rape" argument, based on the concept that the female body wont allow pregnancy from rape. I was so sickened that this was being put over as fact.

I feel that a person can declare themselves against abortion because of their beliefs regarding life, conception, their religion etc. I dont agree with them, but I respect their beliefs. However, declaring oneself as "Pro Life" isnt a belief, it is a political statement and one that is misogynistic. Pro Life used to mean being opposed to abortion but not anymore. Now it means using a womans ability to choose bear (or not) children as a stick to beat her with. I do think that the Pro Life movement started with good intentions but was appropriated by those that seek to put us in our place and saw a good tool with which to do that.

Bogeyface · 19/05/2013 01:19

I did not "kill" my child. I ended a pregnancy.

Your emotive bullshit is no less "junior-school" than the bunch of cells argument.

StuntGirl · 19/05/2013 01:22

Oh gosh, I don't think my views are the most extreme on this thread by a long way!

Angloamerican · 19/05/2013 01:23

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

StuntGirl · 19/05/2013 01:27

Anglo, while that is your opinion bogey and many others do not subscribe to the same opinion. Please do not try to guilt or shame her over having a different opinion to you.

garlicgrump · 19/05/2013 01:28

What about my many "children", then, none of whom stuck long enough to reach the third trimester? Did I kill them? Did they commit suicide? How far do you take this ludicrous fallacy of the independent foetus?

Bogeyface · 19/05/2013 01:29

ACtually, I had to abortions. But neither time did I kill my child.

I have six children. I havent murdered any of them, so no, I have not killed a child.