To think that just because I'm pro-life doesn't mean I hate feminism?

[TinkerSailerSoldierSpy]

Friend and I were having a discussion, I'm 18 weeks pregnant, and it was a bit of an inconvenient surprise, considering I've started a new job just 2 months ago.I mentioned that it wasn't going to look good, me taking maternity leave after not even being there for a year, and she suggested perhaps considering there was no dad on the scene and my new job, I should terminate. I felt a bit uncomfortable but told her that I could never do that as I'm pro life and view it as killing a child. She then proceeded to stare at me like I had an extra head and ask me why in a shocked voice. I explained my reasons and views and we got into an arguement about it, the usual stuff, what about in cases of rape and if the woman's not financially able to support the child, to which I countered but is it right for a woman to get an abortion just because she wants to continue a party lifestyle? And she stormed out the house shouting that I was misogynistic and women have the right to their own bodies. Let me be clear, I certainly would never stop anyone from making their decision about an abortion, I just can't seem to get over the idea of it, it repulses me. But I wouldn't judge a woman who got one. I understand the other viewpoint but I can't agree with it myself, and in all other respects I would say i was very liberal about womans rights. When I mentioned it to other friend she said it was my views but they were quite outdated and misogynistic. Are they? I need advice, should I apologize to friend A?

two not to

Garlic I would like to know that too, I have suffered many miscarriages. Perhaps they were my punishment....

I'd like Anglo to consider some less-than black/white questions. Once you broaden the definition of 'killing', as you have done, Anglo, then you're obliged to explain whether you consider some 'killings' more acceptable than others.

So - miscarriages; did I commit murder by accident? Were they suicides? If neither, how would you define them?

How about my friend who, carrying triplets, was told they were suffocating each other and had to choose whether to abort one or face the likelihood of all three dying? Did she kill that triplet, or do you have another word for it? Had she decided not to abort and they all died, would she have been more or less of a murderer?

Think of young or fragile girls, pregnant before their bodies are strong enough, at very high risk of death in childbirth. Who do you prefer to kill: mother or child?

If you find these questions offensive, it's because your choice of terms is offensive.

Bogey, you're being courageous here. I salute you.

Assuming you didn't willingly undergo a surgical intervention with the primary purpose of "ending the pregnancy" then no, you didn't kill them. And I'm sorry for your losses. I've been on that same path and I wouldn't wish it on anyone. That still doesn't change the truth of anything I've said.

And please note the lack of "trying to shame" someone over a lack of agreement between our opinions. I said on my initial post that how someone reconciles the woman vs. child question is down to them. I simply feel it necessary to point out that the dialogue about "bundles/ bunches of cells" or "it's not a child, it's a pregnancy" is disingenuous, at best.

If I were newly pregnant right now this very second, those first few cells dividing away would not be a person. They would become a person eventually, sure, but they would not be a person in their own right. I am. Therefore I would get to make the decisions about what happens.

I really honestly don't mind someone believing life begins at conception and basing decisions on their own pregnancies on that. But you do not get to control my womb with the same logic, just as I cannot (and would not) force my logic on yours.

And I feel it necessary to point out that someone ending a pregnancy is not killing a child.

Why does the fact that you deem termination as murder make it true?

Believe me, I wouldn't want to take control over anybody's womb. And I can tell that my hopes for intelligent discussion were in vain (unless being told that my opinions were "bullshit" several times counts as intelligent debate around here.)

As for your questions, garlic - the fact that these are terrible questions to ponder doesn't make the answer any more palatable. I have been in a very similar position to the mother of triplets that you reference. My daughter had a condition which was, to use the medical terminology, incompatible with life. I was given the choice of waiting for my daughter to suffocate to death inside me, or "undertake surgical intervention." We "ended the pregnancy" surgically. I would make the same decision again, if I were in that position again. My sole focus was limiting my daughter's suffering. My reasoning, my motivation does not change the fact that I killed my daughter. As I have stated numerous times, how we each reconcile the decisions we make is our business. But it doesn't change our reality, either.

Don't salute me garlic. Sadly this is just a life badly lived! I just get very angry when I read comments that use the old BS of "killing children" "lives tossed away" "have it adopted".

I wish it were that simple, but it never is.

And garlic, I don't find these questions offensive at all. I think these are the very questions that are illuminated and better resolved if we at least be honest about what we are dealing with.

I didnt say that your opinions were bullshit, I said that you saying that a termination is killing a child was bullshit.

I respect your beliefs against abortion. I dont agree with them but I respect them. But I am incensed that you take it upon yourself to judge me a child killer.

You truly believe that you killed your daughter? I am sorry for you that you will carry that self induced burden to your grave, because that is not what you did.

I don't agree with abortion.

I respect other women's choices, and I don't think being pro life is anti feminist. Feminism is not about following rules - it's about openly discussing the choices we make in the world we live in.

Having brought two children into the world I am well aware of the weight of responsibility that that entails. For example, having a family has seriously damaged my career, which is a huge deal for me as a WOHM - career, finances, self-esteem, etc all tied up together. At the same time, were I to have an unplanned pregnancy now I don't think I could bear to terminate it. It's one evil over another - loss of a growing human life vs loss of a huge part of my human life. I think it's an impossible decision and I don't think any woman takes it lightly, whatever she decides.

But assuming that pro life means you're anti-feminist is as absurd as assuming that pro abortion means you're a slapper, and it is wrong to judge us for making whatever choice is right for us.

Tinker at first I thought you may not have articulated your position properly and clearly regarding the party lifestyle. Which if it was your actual opinion would in itself be repugnant. But then I read your last note which comments on woman who just can't be arsed to be a mother.

At this point I realised you are extremely out of touch, old fashioned (in the worst possible way) and you have no understanding or comprehension of the feminist movement that resulted in giving all women rights and liberties that you seem to take for granted. Pro-Choice is one such right. You may not agree with this but please try to articulate your position in a way that does not flippantly brand those women that made this difficult decision as murderers or too lazy to take ownership and responsibility for a child. Otherwise you sound stupid and deserve to be flamed and lambasted on here...

Let me be clear, I certainly would never stop anyone from making their decision about an abortion, I just can't seem to get over the idea of it, it repulses me.

Then you are not 'pro life', you are pro choice, maybe not 'pro abortion on demand' but pro choice.

There is a woman in El Salvador carrying an nonviable foetus, she has lupus, hypertension and kidney disease, the pregnancy could kill her and she is fighting in the high court to be allowed a termination. If you were prolife you would be calling her a murderer.

if you do not believe that a woman has absolute control over her own body, then you are not a feminist.

This is very difficult, but fundamental.

I agree with OP and am pro-life. I only believe in termination in certain circumstances such as rape or if having the baby would threaten the life of the mother. Don't really care if that makes me a feminist or not. If someone was having a termination for another reason such as having a baby doesn't fit in with their lifestyle / they don't want a baby then I would believe that their decision was morally wrong. I do have friends that have aborted and when they have told me I have listened and been understanding of their emotional pain post-terminaton because what's done is done. However if they had asked me if I agreed with their actions I would have had to be honest.

There is no 'just' in what happened to you Bogey. In your case you exercised your right to choose. Miscarriages are completely different from selected termination of a pregnancy. I doubt we will ever all agree. I will continue to find the deliberate ending of a potential human be,cause it is inconvenient, abhorrent. I hate the way some people are just careless about getting pregnant because abortion is seen as an easy option. Many of you would be distraught if your daughters chose to harm themselves yet it would be her body, her right to choose. So often we make choices which are born of desperation. They aren't always the right choices.
I agree with some abortions, I agree that what others do is none of my business. I will never agree with late abortion of a healthy child by a healthy mother but my opinion is only that. You make your own choices and live with them.

Women are 'life' too you know, but you are obviously not 'pro' them.

I hate the term pro-life, it's propaganda of the worst kind, intended to confuse and divide.

Just say you're anti-choice or anti abortion next time.

ClarityVerity, your comprehension of feminism must be very limited.

You are speaking from a position of deep ignorance if you think that being forced to give birth to children could ever be compatible with feminism

Agreed. I hate "pro life" too.

Generally speaking "pro life" seem to regard life before birth as more important to life after

A lot of people on here saying they are 'pro-life' as they would never have an abortion themselves, but then go on to say they wouldn't judge others for having. one. s.
These ople are therefore actually pro-choice surely?

I havent read the rest of the thread so apologies if I have repeated something, I think if you are 'pro life' or 'anti abortion' per se, that what you are saying is that other people (governments and the church- male dominated institutions) should have control over womens bodies. Anti abortionists usually want abortion to be illegal. If you wanted this, I dont see how you can be feminist. You seem like someone who just wouldnt have an abortion, so not 'anti abortion' per se. Although your reaction to the question about rape is offensive.

Hi,

Just another reminder of our talk guidelines.

We will remove any posts which are personal attacks, we will also remove any posts which contain snippets of the personal attacks depending upon the words used, as it's pointless removing the first otherwise.

Many thanks,

MNHQ.

Yes, in particular I'd delete the posts that personally attack someone for "killing their child"