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AIBU?

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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

To think that just because I'm pro-life doesn't mean I hate feminism?

812 replies

TinkerSailerSoldierSpy · 18/05/2013 12:38

Friend and I were having a discussion, I'm 18 weeks pregnant, and it was a bit of an inconvenient surprise, considering I've started a new job just 2 months ago.I mentioned that it wasn't going to look good, me taking maternity leave after not even being there for a year, and she suggested perhaps considering there was no dad on the scene and my new job, I should terminate. I felt a bit uncomfortable but told her that I could never do that as I'm pro life and view it as killing a child. She then proceeded to stare at me like I had an extra head and ask me why in a shocked voice. I explained my reasons and views and we got into an arguement about it, the usual stuff, what about in cases of rape and if the woman's not financially able to support the child, to which I countered but is it right for a woman to get an abortion just because she wants to continue a party lifestyle? And she stormed out the house shouting that I was misogynistic and women have the right to their own bodies. Let me be clear, I certainly would never stop anyone from making their decision about an abortion, I just can't seem to get over the idea of it, it repulses me. But I wouldn't judge a woman who got one. I understand the other viewpoint but I can't agree with it myself, and in all other respects I would say i was very liberal about womans rights. When I mentioned it to other friend she said it was my views but they were quite outdated and misogynistic. Are they? I need advice, should I apologize to friend A?

OP posts:
garlicgrump · 18/05/2013 19:22

Cheers :)

mathanxiety · 18/05/2013 19:23

if your anti abortion stance is fueled by the reasons women have them - then it's anti women rather than pro life. I had a pro life friend who argued that if society valued women and children then all the support a woman would ever need would be there and she wouldn't need to terminate - a little wishy washy but not anti women at all

I agree with this post and the sentiment of the friend mentioned.
Your mention of a 'party lifestyle' and 'couldn't be arsed' feelings are the sort of comments I would expect to hear in the Irish debate on abortion. I also agree with the posters who said your friend had no right to question your decision - it was insensitive at best. However, I can't help wondering if she had been a rape victim and whether your party lifestyle comment hit a nerve.

I think from a 'big picture' pov the picture where economies and philosophies and questions of rights and access to all the modern world offers in terms of education and opportunity exist abortion is the easy way out. On a personal level I don't think it can ever be easy. But on the level of legislation and welfare and legal rights and the apparently difficult area where the rights and responsibilities of men as fathers are concerned it is easier to legislate for abortion than to legislate for true equality or fairness for women -- look at the Equal Rights Amendment sinking without trace in the US at the same time that Roe vs Wade ushered in the right to abortion. Look at the paltry minimum wage anywhere in the world there is one. Look at the recent disaster in Bangladesh for an example of the way the wheels of commerce are allowed to grind the poor - with very few objecting, and poor women (and their orphans) being the ones paying the price. Children who lose their mother in the so-called developing world have very poor prospects.

Unfortunately the current Irish debate centers only on the baby's rights and on [mis]characterisations of women and their motives, and not on the sort of savage environment where anyone finding herself pregnant would be forced to look seriously at abortion as an option. A responsible debate on abortion would place the question in the context of pitiful sentences/deterrents for rape, pitiful minimum wage, practically non-existent facilities for free and good quality childcare in the workplace or in the community, hopeless access to decent quality housing, the fact that women are forced to deal with an abusive man without sympathy or backup from the courts and without regard for the toll that takes on the woman (and often on the child) for years and years after separation or divorce, simply because they had a child with him. A responsible debate would not pit the rights of one individual against another while the third element of the situation emerges unscathed every single time.

It is possible to be against something but still allow others to choose what they do with their own life.
I agree with this too. I think from the pov of justice the logical result of acknowledging that women are equal and free is that they should have the choice. I just wish nobody had to make that choice.

Regarding the party comment, that part of the argument was about whether it should be universally legalised, not individual cases. I'm not a militant pro life kind of person, and I agree that a woman should not be forced to have a rapist's child, however easy access to an abortion for a woman who just can't be arsed to be a mother bothered me. i dont know, it's hard to draw the line I suppose.

In my opinion, legal for one has to be legal for all. Legal only for rape victims or women whose life is threatened by pregnancy leads to all sorts of problems, loophole exploitation, medical problems arising from delay and stress, and horrible 'solutions' including the Girl X case in Ireland where the right to abortion based on one of the exceptions recognised by Ireland of a 14 year old girl who had been raped by the father of her friend was decided in the courts, with attendant pain and anxiety on top of being raped, or the case of Savita Halappananvar whose incompetent doctors put the potential for life of a foetus living in a uterus from which most of the amniotic fluid had drained and who was therefore at risk of potentially fatal infection (to both mother and foetus) ahead of their duty to both the mother and the foetus (the foetus was doomed once the amniotic sac was breached and they should have administered antibiotics at the very least to Savita). Legal for some can end up with both the life of the mother and the life of the foetus jeopardised.

This is what I mean by pitiful sentencing /deterrents when I speak of rapists:
From The X Case chronology and commentary.
"5 March 2002: The victim?s perpetrator is sentenced to 42-months in prison for the kidnap and sexual assault of another young girl. Back in 1992, he was sentenced to four years for the unlawful carnal knowledge of Miss X."
This man had sexually assaulted Girl X for two years before getting her pregnant. He got four flipping years in 1992 despite the comments of the judge that he was 'an evil and depraved man'. What do those words mean, exactly, when the sentence is a mere 48 months? He did it again to another victim once released. He got 42 months that time. There is extreme reluctance on the part of the world's court systems to see rape as a serious crime that deserves serious and meaningful punishment and that must be discouraged.

This is something Ireland badly needs to address.

garlicgrump · 18/05/2013 19:31

What a thoughtful, impassioned post, math. Thanks.

CoalDustWoman · 18/05/2013 19:38

Can I ask a question of those who are anti abortion except in cases of rape?

Who decides if the woman was raped and therefore eligible for an abortion? Because most rape cases don't even get reported, let alone get to trial. And trials often happen months later. And if a jury couldn't say it was rape beyond reasonable doubt, then they are found not guilty, even if rape actually occurred. What about the woman who found herself being penetrated by a man who claimed he thought she was his girlfriend and was found not guilty of rape? What if she had become pregnant?

StuntGirl · 18/05/2013 19:43

Well exactly coal, it's fraught with problems and limitations.

CoalDustWoman · 18/05/2013 19:43

Oh, and a million other questions about the worthiness or otherwise of a product of rape rather than consensual penetration.

LineRunner · 18/05/2013 19:46

Coal, A very important point, especially where people who claim to be 'pro-life' are often the same people who think there is 'real rape'.

It's just a practical, moral and political nonsense.

The only meaningful issue for me is that women have bodily autonomy.

JulieMumsnet · 18/05/2013 20:47

Hi,

We know that this is an emotive subject and we don't want to get in the way of the debate, but we'd appreciate it if you remembered our talk guidelines before you post.

Thanks.
MNHQ

MediumOrchid · 18/05/2013 21:09

Too many posts to answer everything, sorry. I know we are not going to agree on this issue, and I don't have the energy to continue this debate all night!

Just a couple of points though:

Oxfordbags - I'm afraid my mind is clouded with irrelevant religious claptrap, sorry about that.

I'm not saying that the consequences of being anti-abortion aren't really, really difficult. But it all comes back to whether we have the right to end a human life, at any age. If we believe that we don't, it has some really difficult consequences.

hopkinette · 18/05/2013 21:17

it all comes back to whether we have the right to end a human life

Why should an unborn person have rights that no born person has? No born human being has the right to use my body without my consent. Why should any unborn human being?

HairyLittleCarrot · 18/05/2013 21:21

well said hopkinette.

and further, why should I have less rights than another human? than a man? than a non-pregnant woman? than a child?

how to enshrine in law that others can have complete bodily autonomy but a pregnant woman has less rights in law?

TravelinColour · 18/05/2013 21:24

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

seeker · 18/05/2013 21:25

I would also defend to the death the right of a woman not to have an abortion if she doesn't want to.

HairyLittleCarrot · 18/05/2013 21:28

If only people could separate the concepts of
"I don't like that this happens"
and
"I wish it were possible to legally restrict and punish others who believe differently to me"

I was upset at the man who swore next to my 5 year old today. I wish he hadn't done it. But I'm thankful I live in a country that allows us to freely express ourselves without fear of the law and I would defend his rights to do so even if I found the way he exercised his rights abhorrent.

Can't people see that to in any way restrict the bodily autonomy of pregnant women is to formally make them less than other humans under the law?

garlicgrump · 18/05/2013 21:38

why should [a pregnant woman] have less rights than another human? than a man? than a non-pregnant woman? than a child?

Okaaaay ... Just a bit of a ramble but, you know how when you're pregnant, half the world feels entitled to pat your tummy, tell you where to stand/sit, condemn your smoking/drinking/diet, etc, etc? Then they lean into your baby's pram, chuck her little cheeks and continue with the diet/exercise/etc commentary? Annoying, huh.

When I was small - 50 years or so back - it was still vocally acknowledged that communities somehow felt babies were "shared" - not literally, but there was a clear sense of having babies for the community. Probably something to do with post-war repopulation in those days, but it goes back further and runs deep. When humans first formed tribal settlements, population growth was essential: bigger communities could farm more, fight harder and trade more energetically. In those days, too, babies would be literally children of the community: interrelated and communally raised. Human instincts can take a very long time to catch up with the times.

None of this excuses any de-individualisation of the pregnant woman, or erosion of her rights, but it does go some way towards explaining why people often assume a right to know her business! It's an archaic throwback. Perhaps you'd like to inform the next busybody so Wink

sandberry · 18/05/2013 21:41

I feel it is a women's right to refuse to support another (potential) human being with her body at any time. Of course it is. How can we compel anyone to use her body to sustain another's life.

I don't think a woman necessarily has the right to end the life of the fetus prior to birth and that once born a child should be offered medical care appropriate to gestation as any child would be.

I am pro life in that I support the right to life of any being that can survive without being dependent on another being's body to survive.

Bogeyface · 18/05/2013 22:03

I dont get the argument that if someone is a 20+ healthy person then they shouldnt have a termination.

What if she just isnt ready to be a mother? What kind of life would that unwanted child have? Emotional neglect? Physical neglect culminating in a life in care? We see that now with people who WANT the children they are expecting, to take away the right to termination for women actively dont want, and have tried to avoid, becoming pregnant would create horrific situations.

I am also appalled at the way the pro-life lobby wash their hands of any sense of societal responsibility when a woman who didnt terminate is struggling with motherhood, either emotionally or financially. Having a baby isnt simply being pregnant and giving birth, it is a lifelong commitment. The sooner the anti abortion lobby realise this, the better. If that means that they start to support women after birth for as long as they need it, then great, they are putting their money where their mouths are. But all I see at the moment is "Good, we persuaded you to not have an abortion, now off you go"

Karoleann · 18/05/2013 22:05

OP its such an emotive subject, if you were them one who was raped, had a scan that showed your child was seriously malformed, you may feel differently. That poor woman in Ireland who was refused a termination for ununsavable baby, and then died. It's the sort of thing you imagine happening in Afghanistan.

But, to terminate a perfectly healthy baby after 12 weeks, when its not just a bundle of cells, but a human with arms and legs and a healthy beating heart, just because its an inconvenience, surely isn't right. I don't want any more children, but if I did get pregnant again, I can't imagine killing my own child, just to fit in with my lifestyle.

hopkinette · 18/05/2013 22:10

to terminate a perfectly healthy baby after 12 weeks, when its not just a bundle of cells, but a human with arms and legs and a healthy beating heart, just because its an inconvenience, surely isn't right

Pregnancy isn't "an inconvenience." Being a parent isn't "an inconvenience." Not being able to find a parking place is an inconvenience. Stop being facile.

Bogeyface · 18/05/2013 22:12

Karol Who has terminations because the baby is "inconvenient"? No one I know, I certainly didnt. I spent weeks trying to convince myself that it would all be ok, but I knew it wouldnt be and in the end I did terminate. I felt that I had no choice as I couldnt bring a baby into the horrible life it would have had at that time.

Do you really think that anyone goes into it without thinking seriously about whether it is the best thing to do? To say that a 27 year old who got pregnant on a ONS (say) so would be a single mother and isnt ready for parenthood is terminating for conveniences sake is insulting in the extreme.

And why the 12 weeks cut off? Why not 10, 8 6?

CoalDustWoman · 18/05/2013 22:13

Karoleann, you don't have to.

manicinsomniac · 18/05/2013 22:14

Exactly coaldust.That attitude makes me feel like my daughter is less valuable than other children because her 'father' raped me. The idea that a child could be aborted just because s/he was conceived unwillingly is so foreign to me. It's still a child.

Bogeyface · 18/05/2013 22:15

Karol to put it another way. What if your husband left you for another woman, left the country and cleared your accounts (this happened on MN not that long ago). You have the children you currently have, no money, cant afford the rent and will be soon made homeless. You then find out you are 10 weeks pregnant by him. Can you honestly say that you wouldnt consider abortion?

CoalDustWoman · 18/05/2013 22:17

And, yes. That there exists this myth of the casual abortion seeker makes me grimace.

SolidGoldBrass · 18/05/2013 22:18

Yup, I stand by my contempt for anti-choicers, or let's just call them what they are: woman-haters.

Because anti-choicers really do hate women. They love foetuses because foetuses aren't actually people; foetuses don't answer back, or pinch money out of your purse, or listen to unsuitable music, or throw up on the new carpet. They consider women to be walking incubators, who cannot be allowed to prioritize anything (their jobs, their homes, their health, their lives) over their duty to breed.

But the key indicator that anti-choicers are moronic, woman-hating scum is this line they are always trotting out about women having late abortions 'for convenience.' In their eyes, women are all capricious, selfish and cruel, and would all decide to abort at 39 weeks on a whim unless they are controlled by men wiser authorities.