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To think that just because I'm pro-life doesn't mean I hate feminism?

812 replies

TinkerSailerSoldierSpy · 18/05/2013 12:38

Friend and I were having a discussion, I'm 18 weeks pregnant, and it was a bit of an inconvenient surprise, considering I've started a new job just 2 months ago.I mentioned that it wasn't going to look good, me taking maternity leave after not even being there for a year, and she suggested perhaps considering there was no dad on the scene and my new job, I should terminate. I felt a bit uncomfortable but told her that I could never do that as I'm pro life and view it as killing a child. She then proceeded to stare at me like I had an extra head and ask me why in a shocked voice. I explained my reasons and views and we got into an arguement about it, the usual stuff, what about in cases of rape and if the woman's not financially able to support the child, to which I countered but is it right for a woman to get an abortion just because she wants to continue a party lifestyle? And she stormed out the house shouting that I was misogynistic and women have the right to their own bodies. Let me be clear, I certainly would never stop anyone from making their decision about an abortion, I just can't seem to get over the idea of it, it repulses me. But I wouldn't judge a woman who got one. I understand the other viewpoint but I can't agree with it myself, and in all other respects I would say i was very liberal about womans rights. When I mentioned it to other friend she said it was my views but they were quite outdated and misogynistic. Are they? I need advice, should I apologize to friend A?

OP posts:
MediumOrchid · 18/05/2013 18:48

Visualise - I'm sorry that offends you so much. But if, like me, you consider the life of a newborn baby to be as valuable as a 5 week old foetus, it's a logical necessity.

Having said all that, I could consider myself pro-choice as I wouldn't dream of telling someone having an abortion is wrong, or protesting at clinics, or any of that. It's not my business. Maybe that makes me a hypocrite! But I'm afraid I can't help my opinion that abortion is wrong.

thegreylady · 18/05/2013 18:54

I am pro-life usually though I,like many others have 'exceptions'.
If it is shown that the potential child has a severely life limiting condition.
If to continue the pregnancy would endanger the mother's life.
If the mother is less than 16 years old.
If the pregnancy is the result of rape.
I do not agree with abortion after 18 weeks gestation nor when it is a 'convenience'.
BUT I do support every woman's right to make her own decisions.I don't have to agree with her nor would I make the decison myself [when I was of child bearing age].I would support my daughter if she made that decision though I hope she never would.
To ME abortion is killing a child and that is why I couldn't do it.Each to her own I say.

Bogeyface · 18/05/2013 18:57

So Greylady You are not in fact Pro-Life at all are you?

You are anti-abortion for yourself. Thats not pro-life at all.

thegreylady · 18/05/2013 18:59

This business of anyone abusing someone else for holding different views is appalling.However prolife I am [and I guess I really am] I would fight to the last for anyone's right to his/her opinions and to do what she chose [though it would stick in my craw if someone chose to have a viable foetus killed (post 23 weeks) because keeping it became inconvenient].

MediumOrchid · 18/05/2013 19:00

Badvoc - a woman is only forced to become a mother against a will if she is raped and prevented from having an abortion. Which I agree would be horrific. I know this is going to be unpopular but a woman chooses to have sex, and pregnancy is always a risk of having sex - that is its purpose. People seem to think that having consequence free sex is a right, but sometimes the consequence is an sti, and sometimes it's pregnancy, no matter what protection you use.

And yes, I know I'm going to be flamed for saying that.

thegreylady · 18/05/2013 19:02

I suppose what I am is in a muddle-I am 69 years old and my heart tells me that simply abortion is murder but we are human and there are few absolutes.I wouldn't want to go back to desperation and knitting needles in back street rooms but I do hate the casual tossing away of a little life.

HairyLittleCarrot · 18/05/2013 19:03

mediumorchid
why are you insulted to be considered anti-choice? It isnt a value-loaded judgement, in fact it is probably the most factual representation of your beliefs.

the other terms are very misleading, I would be described differently depending on circumstances
consider the circumstance where a woman wishes to continue her pregnancy. I support that choice, therefore I am not Pro-abortion, I am pro-life. I support her right to choose.

yet where a woman wishes to terminate I would support that too. the only consistently accurate description of me covering both is pro-choice. Perhaps pro-womens rights?

do you believe other women should have the choice to terminate or continue a pregnancy?
Are you pro-choice
or anti-choice?

EglantinePrice · 18/05/2013 19:04

That's ridiculous greylady. All abortions are for convenience to a greater or lesser degree. Who are u to decide what level of convenience is legitimate?

StuffezLaYoni · 18/05/2013 19:05

Right, mediumorchid. So those of us who never want to become parents should avoid sex for the duration of our lives in case of consequences we may do our utter best to avoid?

VisualiseAHorse · 18/05/2013 19:06

(have calmed down a bit now, sorry for getting all sweary.).

Orchid - what about women who have used contraception, and it failed them? Is it ok for her to abort?

And again - isn't that suggesting that a baby from rape/failed contraceptive holds less value than a 'fingers crossed you don't get pregnant, but let's shag anyway' baby? Or, because you were stupid enough to think that you wouldn't get pregnant than you 'deserve' to get pregnant, give birth and spend the rest of your life looking after a child you didn't want? And for that child to born into a family where it wasn't wanted?

OxfordBags · 18/05/2013 19:06

Pro-abortion is simply a very immature term to suggest. No pro-choicer is going around rubbing their hands in glee, thinking "Oooh, lovely, fun abortions, yippee!". No-one's thinking "Yay! Lots of women will be having abortions today, get in!". Abortions are necessary because they re necessary and women have the right to choice one - hence the term pro-choice.

A 5 week old foetus is simply not the same as an actual, living baby. Not in any real, practical sense at all. The similarity exists purely in the minds of anti-abortionists, for whatever reasons, be it that they are too intellectually or emotionally unstable or immature to understand how incredibly different in all ways an embryo and living child are, or that there minds are clouded with irrelevant religious clap trap, or that they are simply incredibly judgemental and wrongly presume that they should have a say in the lives of other and need to get a life, or maybe they are just plain old misogynists or female self-identifying misogynists. I don't really care what the reason is, really, because there an be no true dialogue with someone who cannot and will not see the massive difference, because they are not capable of rational and structured thought on the matter.

Anyone who thinks that abortions are easy things that women just do on a whim to escape from responsibilities disgusts me. They clearly do not live in the real world, they make it obvious they struggle with even the most basic skills of perception and empathy, and yet they wade in with their illogical, judgemental, hateful, scientifically-dodgy crap, trying to present themselves as the ones who care about people.

Well, what about the actual LIVING BEINGS? The women who have to carry the pregnancy are reall living people, with needs and lives and feelings and problems and people depending on them. They matter more than something growing inside them. They have more rights. They take priority. To say differently is to actually be anti-life, not pro-life. Placing your priorities on something not het fully real over a real person indicates psychological disturbance and a lack of true morality that is then covered up with emotive outpourings and proclamations of 'caring', etc. I personally think many pro-lifers are using the issue as a crutch to not look at real problems in their own life, or the world around them, and also lack true empathy and caring and use it as a method to cover this up and deny it to themselves. Otherwise, what it the reason for wanting to deny someone real rights over something that is not yet real?!

Bogeyface · 18/05/2013 19:07

Grey

I have had 2 terminations and I can tell you without fear of contradiction from anyone else who has had one, that it is not "the casual tossing away of a little life". I agonised for weeks before both and I am confident that I made the right decision both times. Will it stay with me forever? Yes. Do I regret it? No. I would have regretted having to stay in an abusive relationship or having contact with my abuser far more because I had given birth to his child.

EglantinePrice · 18/05/2013 19:08

Of course the unborn child has no choice hairy... This discussion of terminology is really all about perspective.

Theironfistofarkus · 18/05/2013 19:09

I am pro-choice. But I really find comparing a foetus to a parasite and describing it as the property of a host unecessary and upsetting. Spare a thought for those who have lost babies before birth here please!

ethelb · 18/05/2013 19:10

OP, I think you are getting a slightly hard time here. I personally think some of your views are a bit naive, however, your friend wasn't exactly being tactful or even that pro-"choice" if she is shouting at you that women have a right to decide what happenes to their own bodies but doesn't respect your view that you have a living human being inside you!

Infact she sounds quite self-absorbed as she has made your difficult situation (getting mat leave etc) all about her and her political/ethical views. In fact I think she is a bit of a shit friend tbh.

VisualiseAHorse · 18/05/2013 19:10

I do hate the casual tossing away of a little life.

I hate that idea too - but I honestly don't think that the vast majority of women will do it casually. I have never met anyone with the view of 'ah well, if I get preggers, I'll just get it aborted'. I think its a minuscule amount of women who use abortion as contraceptive.

thegreylady · 18/05/2013 19:10

Eglantine if a life is at risk 'convenience' doesn't come ito it.If a young girl has been raped convenience does not come into it.If a foetus has anencephaly convenience does not come into it. If a healthy 20+ thinks "Oh shit being pregnany screws up my Summer," then that isn't on in my opinion'.

StuntGirl · 18/05/2013 19:12

"They [women] matter more than something growing inside them."

A thousand times this. A living, breathing, feeling adult woman who is already alive will always, always trump the cells growing inside her in my opinion.

StuffezLaYoni · 18/05/2013 19:13

But grey lady those are criteria YOU'VE decided on. Why are your criteria more important than mine?

HairyLittleCarrot · 18/05/2013 19:13

some posters don't seem to realise their opinions seem to imply that they believe
"you willingly had sex, for reasons other than procreation. You deserve your unwanted pregnancy as some kind of punishment for daring to do this"

Theres almost a glee in "consequences" being visited upon women for having sex. And an unspoken admittance that an unwanted pregnancy is a punishment.

garlicgrump · 18/05/2013 19:14

an embryo doesn't demand hosting

No, Orchid, you demand on its behalf. I wonder if you'd be prepared to have it transplanted into your body, to protect its "rights"? Obv not medically possible at present, but it's interesting how keen you are to sign another woman up to share her organs.

can't you see that I find it as insulting to be called anti choice as you do to be called anti life?

You ARE anti-choice. You are against women having a choice. I'm not against women having babies, so am not anti-life.

EglantinePrice · 18/05/2013 19:15

And if it just fucks up the career that you've spent years working towards? Just confused as to how its ok for some women but not others...

garlicgrump · 18/05/2013 19:16

Ironfist, I'm sorry my terminology upset you.

If it's any comfort, I'm the queen of miscarriages and was unable to carry full-term.

garlicgrump · 18/05/2013 19:19

an unwanted pregnancy is a punishment

Yes, how lovely for that little life you anti-choicers are so keen to protect: to be a punishment on its mother.

Wow, that's a recipe for a happy family Hmm

Theironfistofarkus · 18/05/2013 19:20

Apology accepted and sorry to hear that garlic.