to demand a child is excluded from school?

[Tubemole1]

I will try and keep this as brief as poss. My daughter is in Y1 and one of her classmates, a boy, often harrasses her. She has been pinched and hair pulled during carpet time and put in a headlock during playtime. I have asked for this boy to stay away from my daughter and her teacher has made efforts to do so.

Today, the same boy attacked four girls. He bit one on the neck and drew blood. Another girl was bitten on the arm five times, no blood. My daughter was attacked as well but she managed to escape with no injury. Obviously my fellow mums and I are outraged. Nothing was done to discipline the boy, so he can't grasp the enormity of the fallout of his actions. My daughter, certainly, was left shaken, trying to make sense if it. This boy has a fascination with vampires, but we all wonder what has he seen to act this way?

I am all for complaining to the school, but dh wants our daughter to just kick him in the balls if he tries again. What message will that give, when she has to fight back to survive?

My daughter is a toughie, and can defend herself, but she bottles up her true feelings. The teacher doesn't see that she's upset, because she only lets it go when she's home, and we have a blubbering child needing our care and understanding. Is it unreasonable to ask the school makes sure our kids are safe thru the day, and this boy is either excluded, or has some sort of intervention?

Oh informed up to a point - so informed about your dd. they shouldn't tell you anything much about the boy.

But they don't needed to give details of how it had been dealt with. They can reassure it has been dealt with.

I would speak to the school again but keep calm. Ask about what is being done to safeguard your child as you are concerned about violence on the yard. Unfortunatly many of these incidents happen at lunchtime when teachers are not on duty in the main, but your school should have some systems to support children during this time.

Good luck, hope things get better

The girl needs to have a pretty big meltdown exactly when things upset her. I'm not endorsing violence, but OP is right to think that her DD is taking it too quietly, staff will go on child reactions to decide how severe the behaviour is, if OP's child shrugs it off of course staff don't realise what impact the behaviour is having, how could they?

And yes I have been on other side, DS was pestering a girl but teacher didn't seem to take it seriously, and when I asked why the girl didn't shout at DS to stop so that teacher realised how much of a pest DS was, the mother said "Oh no, she wouldn't do that, she doesn't want to get in trouble!"

Send her to Judo, OP, best thing I ever did to teach DD to stand up for herself. The psychology alone is worth it.

"if your DD kicks him in the balls, in self-defence or not, then you may find that it's your DD who gets excluded, and rightly so."

You think a child should be excluded from school for defending themselves when attacked by another child?

If they aren't excluding the lad for repeated biting the girl won't get excluded for a single self-defensive kick.

Poor lad, must be really screwed up.

MaureenMLove what exactly do you mean by your advice to the OP to "find out the address ... of the agencies involved with the child"?

You are in danger of advising OP to make an utter fool of herself.

The day I tell a 5 year old to kick a 5 year old wee boy in the balls...

Well..there wouldn't be such a day.

Years ago a boy with ADHD targeted my DD, she had physical attacks and eventually an 'inappropriate touching' incident. The boy's mother told anyone who would listen about the boys problems in the playground.
After the last 'issue' I went to the HT and demanded action. They gave me the 'can't discuss the child' line. I bluntly gave them two options 1) We discussed his problems and worked together and got a good outcome for both children or 2) Or I would develop the 'He was a little ' and what were they going to do about him attitude, I would escalate to Governors, LA, local MP....Which did they want?
I gave them time to speak to the childs family....The mother approached me...we discussed together with HT...actions were put in place, I was able to give DD coping strategies.
It turned out he 'liked my DD very much'. He just didn't know how to behave round her.
Now, they are both in their early 20s and still in touch.

*AThingInYourLife Sat 18-May-13 09:37:56
"if your DD kicks him in the balls, in self-defence or not, then you may find that it's your DD who gets excluded, and rightly so."

You think a child should be excluded from school for defending themselves when attacked by another child?*

Are you seriously suggesting that EVER hurting a little boy's genitals is acceptable? Seriously? These are tiny children!

YABU

Your dd was not hurt, no mark was left and was this the first event?

Why exclude a 5yo when you can work through his issues with the school?

You first need to talk to the teacher and find out what happened.

mrsmindcontrol
"The school, educational psychologists, myself & various other professionals are working behind the scenes to work out why he behaves this way & find measures to stop it but its HARD, it's so very very HARD."

Is your child on medication for ADHD?

"Are you seriously suggesting that EVER hurting a little boy's genitals is acceptable? Seriously? These are tiny children!"

Are you suggesting that EVER biting someone's neck until you draw blood is acceptable?

Seriously, these are tiny children.

Either the kid should be excluded for attacking his classmates, or it's OK for them to fight back.

I can't see why his precious genitals need to be protected at all costs but the other children just have to suck it if he bites them until they bleed.

AThing. Glad you are not a teacher.

Well hope not anyway.

Timetoask, yes, he's been on atemoxetine for 2 years but he's about to start a trial without it as it doesn't seem to be having a significant effect. He's not especially hyper, more impulsive so not sure whether Ritalin would be appropriate.

"The day I tell a 5 year old to kick a 5 year old wee boy in the balls..."

I wouldn't tell them to either.

But I still don't think a child should be excluded for defending themselves from a child who was assaulting them.

It's pretty messed up to think that children can't be excluded for causing physical harm ti other children, unless it was done in self-defence

Mrsmindcontrol, your post is very compelling.

I work in a school that has several children like yours and incidents happen.

Of course when a child is bitten or slapped you desk with it immediately. We have measures in place to deal with this of course.

But my ultimate sympathy is with the ADHD child.

They are not in a wheelchair or blind but they are just as disabled for life and their parents have a very very rough row to hoe, again for life.

Inclusion is all now. Parents and schools have little choice and funding is not always available for one to one shadowing of a child.

Of course I feel for your dd and yes you need to teach her strategies and of course complain. But don't all gang up in this family. Believe me they will have it far far tougher than you.

I have worked as a teacher, and no way would I have been moving to exclude a child who kicked another kid in the genitals in self-defence while they were being assaulted.

Would anyone?

I'd love to be at that tribunal.

And there would be a tribunal.

Imagine explaining that one to a 5 year old

"You mustn't kick Johnny, that is very, very naughty."
"But Johnny was biting me, I was scared."
"No, you must never kick anyone. Even if they hurt you very, very badly. It was very wrong and now you can't come to school any more."
"Can Johnny still come to school?"
"Yes"
" waaaaaaaaah! That's not fair!"

Take away message:

"Next time little girl, be the one to do damage first. Then nobody can touch you."

AThing. That doesn't make it right though.

Doesn't make what right?

It's not right to tell your kid to kick another child in the balls

But nor is it right to tell children that they just have to put up with being seriously and regularly attacked by their peers as the price of their education.

Inclusion shouldn't mean putting children in danger.

A dangerous child either needs to be shadowed, or removed.

If we can't afford the resources to keep children safe from assault by their peers, we can't afford inclusion.

thebody thank you. Your post made me cry. My poor boy has had a very tough life so far. Thank you for your compassion & understanding.

AThing, I suspect you're right but we can't afford constant shadowing or inclusion so WHAT is the answer cos sure as hell, tit for tat is certainly not it.

Mrsmind, I honestly had no real idea until I worked in a school.

Tough for you families and of course for your child. Really tough.

I agree so much with inclusion but of course it's not about helping children and families its about saving money. some children need constant shadowing and help and its just not available.

Unfair to all. Xx

Much as I sympathise with the "kick him in the balls" approach, it's a bad idea for two reasons. One is the very real likelihood that it will go wrong, DD will try to kick him, and he will hit back all the harder. The other is that DD loses the moral high ground. The boy will just say "But she tried to kick me" and the teacher will say "Oh, it's six of one, half a dozen of the other" and then not listen to any of the OP's complaints.

I think this is a hard one, because if the school isn't disciplining the boy, and if they aren't doing anything to protect other children from him, then they really sound pretty ineffectual. So yes, complain as a first step - in fact I would write a joint letter to the head, as they can't ignore a letter, and take it from there. But if you don't get satisfaction, you may have to withdraw your DD from the school. Nobody should be sent into an environment where they are at risk of physical harm.

Holly said that the school will never discuss what they are doing with another child. Not true, ime. At my DD's last school, classes were continually disrupted by a girl who was often physically violent. I emailed the school about her, expressing concern that other children were at risk. The deputy head phoned me up and we had a long conversation in which he said the girl was having anger management sessions with a counsellor, her behaviour was improving, and in his view there was no danger to the other children. I eventually removed DD from the school anyway, not just because of that girl, but because of the school's generally feeble response to dealing with bad behaviour.

Totally agree with Athing.

I think their should be some sort of 3 strikes and you're out rule.
My son was beaten to the ground, threatened to be stabbed with a pair of scissors, attacked in the playground so bad that we took him to hospital with concussion and vomiting.

The mother was called in daily because this child has problem. While i feel for this boy that he will have to struggle daily everyday for the rest of his life, i feel like i should be able to send my children to school without worrying if they're going to come home bruised.

All children need to be protected. All children have the right to an education.

"Today, the same boy attacked four girls. He bit one on the neck and drew blood. Another girl was bitten on the arm five times, no blood. My daughter was attacked as well but she managed to escape with no injury."

Firstly, where are you getting your information from? If its from 5/6 year old children I really think you should take a lot of it with a huge pinch of salt. Children do embellish a lot after all. However if the above is indeed all 100% true do you honestly think this boy has not been dealt with at all?! Of course he has! But theyre not going to share with the baying mob pissed off parents of the other kids how theyve managed the situation.

As for kicking the other kid in the balls- thats not acceptable either. You should never tell a child to do that to anyone, ever. Be careful how much vitorol you have for this boy, despite what hes done. He may well end up getting the blame for all the bad behaviour in that class whether he is to blame or not. It doesnt take long for other children to realise how much blame they can heap on each other and get away with it.