to think my DNiece is being neglected and my DBro should do something?

[CrocsNSocks]

My brother has a DD with a woman he had a brief fling with 8 years ago. He has always seen her but irregularly for much of that time as he was struggling with alcoholism and not in a good place himself. He has been sober for the last 2 years and is now engaged and settled with a steady job. I'm posting because he, while he agrees that the situation with his DD is in his words 'not ideal' he feels there's nothing to be gained by any action and I want to canvas opinions to see if I should continue to try and persuade him otherwise!

So onto the details. My DBro was quite young (19) when he met the mother (who was the same age). She lived in a caravan on a nearby new age traveller site at the time, though moved into a flat with DBro when she fell pregnant. Their DD was born after they'd only been together a year and they split when she was 18 mo though things were rocky for most of that time and they didn't live together from when she was 6 mo.

Since then the mother has returned to living on traveller sites. DBro used to travel to wherever she was staying to see DNiece but since he stopped drinking and cut association with his old friends on that scene, she has been coming to stay with him for a week a few times a year instead and so the rest of the family have finally been able to get to know her over the last two years.

DNiece lives with her mother, her mother's partner, her 2 younger siblings, and various dogs in a bus. They are living without proper running water, just a tap in the corner of a field, and with no proper toilets (hole in the ground ones [vom] ) and no shower/bath facilities. She is usually filthy when she arrives for visits as she goes weeks without a proper bath though her hair is looked after really well, strangely and I will say in her mother's favour that she never has nits.

She does not go to school. She can read and write and do basic sums but that's because she is a bright child, not because anyone has bothered to teach her. She is quite vocal in her opinion (I say her opinion, it'll be her mothers opinion but you know what I mean!) that school is a waste of time and her mother has apparently always said that no child of hers will go to school. Fair enough. But then she needs educating, not just running wild with a pack of children day in day out with the excuse that "she is learning what she needs to know"

She has no bedtime at home (the children apparently get told to come in when it gets dark), gets taken to weekend long parties frequently, her mother/mother's partner/their friends smoke weed in front of the children (according to DBro who used to see this when he visited). She really seems to love and relish the basic care she gets when visiting - bathing, hair drying, wrapping up in a towel, painting nails with my DD, choosing new socks and knickers, that sort of thing - and also the routine of 'normal life'.

DNiece is a lovely child, she has good manners and is very bright and articulate. I don't think she is being abused by any stretch, but I do think she is subject to persistent low level neglect and think my DBro should grow a backbone and talk to his ex about educating her properly, washing her, and at the very least finding somewhere to park the bus that has showers and toilets fgs. DBro thinks this would be out of order, he says he let her down and now has no right to tell her mother what to do, he also tells me that their lifestyle is different and that unless his DD is in danger he isn't going to wade in like that. I think he is being a spineless twit and it is never too late to stand up for his own child....

The threshold for concern is not 'very high', the resources available are very low resulting in only high need cases getting attention.

"The Lea may not be aware and they cannot insist on checking to see if a child is receiving an education."

Correct, 5madthings, but if the LA (not LEA these days, btw), is aware of the existence of the child they can take court action if the parent provides no evidence to convince them that the child is receiving an appropriate education (see my comment re Phillips vs Brown as a precedent, above). The law is clear - the LA may not insist upon receiving proof but they are in a position to take action if they have reason to believe that there is no education taking place or the education being provided is unsatisfactory. Without proof to the contrary they would be reasonable, according to that precedent, to believe that this is the case.

So if they know about the child the chances are highly, highly likely that they are as satisfied as the law allows them to be that an appropriate education is being given or they are currently working with the mother to ensure that this is soon to be the case. In short, generally speaking LAs hate current laws on HE and want them tightened up or HE ended altogether and they'll go to extraordinary lengths to shoehorn children into school. Some are not beyond lying and bullying in order to achieve this - and I speak from personal experience on that front.

Paradise yes it is very different.

And the whole point of he s you get to chose how you do it,nobody gets to decide if its proper or not unless the child is not wing provided with an education at all.

So who defines what meets that's requirement of providing an education?

The only thing I'd be concerned about at present is the pot smoking, tbh. As the girl gets older, the question of qualifications would be more relevant, and I'd hope her father will be able to make sure that the girl herself can make a properly informed decision about whether to attend school or work towards qualifications when she's older. He stands a better chance of being able to do that if he hasn't alienated the mother.

I don't agree (apart from the drugs) with the argument that if a child was living in a house, then it would be classed as neglect - therefore this is neglect. As long as the child is healthy, then she isn't being neglected in the context of her life. A regular bedtime is only an issue if you're getting up for school in the morning. A different level of hygiene - obviously as long as it isn't affecting the girl's health - isn't a problem if all the other kids are the same, as the child won't be ashamed or ostracised. Of course, if she has body lice and worms and all those other things, then that is a health issue. I assume that she doesn't, though - if the OP has taken the trouble to say that she hasn't got nits, then she probably would have mentioned if the child had been crawling with body lice.

Certainly the father needs to keep a close eye that his dd is healthy, doesn't seem unhappy, and has the right to exercise her own choices when older. I'd say that's the same for any child.

It isn't a question of being "right on", or not, it's a question of trying to work out, with the information we've got, whether the child is truly being neglected. I'd like to think that most respondents on here saw the thread title and were concerned about a child, rather than trying to show off how right on we are .

I think they can prosecute if they are NOT getting an education so the parent has to prove the home education is happening - that is law -

'The council can make an ?informal enquiry? if you?re educating your child at home, to make sure they?re getting a suitable education. If the council thinks your child isn?t receiving a suitable education, they might serve a school attendance order' (direct gov)

rarely happens in practice

I pressed send too soon. I meant to add that as a result of their opinions on HE most LAs are very, very hot on doing all they can to identify and track, if not clamp down on HEers.

FYI don't want to make a prejudiced judgement about this because obviously have no evidence but while we are in the subject heroin is absolutely rife on some travellers sites and a lot of people who use it use cannabis smoking as a "cover story" for why they are so flaky.

Obviously I don't know if the mum does this and she may well not but its quite likely there are people doing it on site. And I realise there are junkies in mainstream society too but it's easier to avoid them. Personally the weed smoking isnt my biggest concern in this sutuation. Its not ideal but a lot of people do it without major health or social problems and the lack of school bothers me much more - but it's worth bearing in mind that weed may not be the only drug this child is exposed to.

(By the way I used to know quite a lot of people on site so this isn't just prejudice about travellers.)

I'm not trying to say it's a great lifestyle, I wouldn't choose it, I just don't think the brother is in much of a position to change anything except through his own actions and time spent with the child. If there's a big push to get all children into formal education, then the LEA/EWO will visit the site (there's a really big one near us and they do this).

And, who is to say that if push came to shove, the mum couldn't engage nicely with a EWO and/or produce some evidence of her education, she didn't just learn to read and write and do maths by magic (this may already be happening)!

If this child is reported either to an LEA or SS or other authority by the brother, they will just get up and move or go abroad, that's the lifestyle! What is for sure is that he would lose contact.

Yes I agree some la's can be arseholes about home ed! Thankfully ours were not and other is a strong home ed 'movement' in the county I live in.

The LA probably are aware of this child and as they are taking no action you would assume they are 'happy' with the education she is receiving. They may not support it or like it but legally other is little they can do, tho they do try and certainly pressure parents to send children to school. They will have a system for involvement with traveling families I expect.

actually LEA's are required by central government to track and engage ALL EHE children - it's not LEA's being over zealous

I suppose my thinking is along the lines that as a society there is a certain norm, a level we expect other members of that society to meet and a degree of conformity expected.

It sounds like this women, and her children by default, have opted out of that.

Do we, as a society, leave her to it, regardless? And if so why is ok to support this non conformity and not that of a heroin user? Both have opted out of society to a certain degree have they not?

Interesting ponderings for a rainy afternoon.

As far as the education goes, I just don't think that a child, however bright, can learn to read without access to reading material and someone reading with her. Same for numeracy. My two learned to read without any formal teaching, but they didn't pluck it out of the air either. I'm still concerned about the drugs, especially in the light of what quesadilla said, but at her age she does indeed seem to be learning what she needs to know.

because not living in a house and home educating is hardly radical - it's a matter of where you sleep and where your kids do sums - using class A drugs, neglecting your kids health and education but living in a house is hardly better!

We expect a certain level of engagement as well, from pre birth, schooling, health needs - is it truly possible to exist without engaging with these services? And is it safe not to? For some people it will be, for others it could mean children are left at risk. So what's the solution? If it's ok for some but not others, who decides?

I would imagine traveling families are tracked/checked up on more than others.

When we home educated I simply didn't apply for a school place for ds1 or ds2 and it was several years before I got in touch with the Lea, when we were then looking at flexi schooling. In that time no one contacted us and our HV and gp knew we were home educating and when we had to visit a&e when one of true boys hurt themselves the forms asked about which school they attended. We said they were home educated. No concerns were ever raises, no-one ca,e to check up on us at all. But then we lived in a house and dp worked and in guess in am typically middle class, with a degree and the usual life style and trappings of a middle class family. Even when I was poorly after the birth of ds4 and we had involvement with children's services the home education was not an issue!

We don't interfere, ParadiseChick, in the same way that we don't prevent you from marrying because 1 in 4 women will be the victims of DV at some point in their lives. We allow people autonomy over their own lives, bodies and children.

To start deciding how a person lives, that a child must be educated only in a school with 30 people who are within 12 months of his own age is a dangerous thing imho.

If this camp is anything like the new age travellers camp near us, it will have plenty of engagement with services! It is possible to go under the radar though, and there have been a few high profile neglect cases connected with purported HE (the one where the little girl stole scraps of bread from the garden).

I would also say, her life can't be that chaotic if she keeps in touch and maintains contact with the child's father (brother). It would have been incredibly easy for her to just move off and let him drop out of their lives, but she clearly facilitates contact many times a year. That suggests, and the polite manners, and levels of reading/writing/maths, makes me think that it is not as chaotic as it might seem.

But we do interfere, lots.

I work with parents with chaotic lives long before the children are of school age.

mumsy I thought that as well, this mother could have easily moved and lost contact with the father and given the fact he was at one point an alcoholic I wouldn't have blamed her if she had. But she hasnt, she has maintained contact and allowed access etc so its likely she is doing the same with the relevant authorities re education.

leave them alone. if the child is bright, polite and articulate, she's miles ahead of many.

Sock, is it possible for a child not to be registered with any shcool, or LA, and therefore not educatoin tracked at all?

ExBrighton, had a think about the Steiner schools. No, I am not happy about that.

OP, I totally understand how you feel. The life your DN lives is so alien to the one my children have, and I think I'd be upset if a child in my family was brought up in that way.

However, the mother is entitled to choose how she lives, and, considering she has raised your DN to be well-mannered and free to speak her own mind shows to me that she is a good parent. She also managed without support from your DB perfectly well, so I doubt she will welcome any interfering from him at this stage.

Keep building the relationship with your niece, taking the opportunity to get to know her. If she feels comfortable with you, maybe in the future, if she needs help in getting into college etc, she'll feel able to turn to you.

You sound like you truly care about her OP so I realise it must be frustrating.

As it's you who wants to take action, then take it. Start by getting on with her mum. Send her mum a note saying how impressed you are with DNiece who is a lovely girl and so smart and you're amazed by her math skills at only 8 years old. Be complimentary and not patronising. Then - slowly, a bit later - say wow she's so clever I wonder if we could pay for music lessons for her, or similar. Gently offer her mum some help, in an area you think would benefit DNiece. If she takes you up on it, that's fabulous for DNiece. If not, you can back off. You can always offer again later. But start by trying to build a genuinely good relationship with her mum.