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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to think my DNiece is being neglected and my DBro should do something?

197 replies

CrocsNSocks · 17/05/2013 21:34

My brother has a DD with a woman he had a brief fling with 8 years ago. He has always seen her but irregularly for much of that time as he was struggling with alcoholism and not in a good place himself. He has been sober for the last 2 years and is now engaged and settled with a steady job. I'm posting because he, while he agrees that the situation with his DD is in his words 'not ideal' he feels there's nothing to be gained by any action and I want to canvas opinions to see if I should continue to try and persuade him otherwise!

So onto the details. My DBro was quite young (19) when he met the mother (who was the same age). She lived in a caravan on a nearby new age traveller site at the time, though moved into a flat with DBro when she fell pregnant. Their DD was born after they'd only been together a year and they split when she was 18 mo though things were rocky for most of that time and they didn't live together from when she was 6 mo.

Since then the mother has returned to living on traveller sites. DBro used to travel to wherever she was staying to see DNiece but since he stopped drinking and cut association with his old friends on that scene, she has been coming to stay with him for a week a few times a year instead and so the rest of the family have finally been able to get to know her over the last two years.

DNiece lives with her mother, her mother's partner, her 2 younger siblings, and various dogs in a bus. They are living without proper running water, just a tap in the corner of a field, and with no proper toilets (hole in the ground ones Shock [vom] ) and no shower/bath facilities. She is usually filthy when she arrives for visits as she goes weeks without a proper bath though her hair is looked after really well, strangely Hmm and I will say in her mother's favour that she never has nits.

She does not go to school. She can read and write and do basic sums but that's because she is a bright child, not because anyone has bothered to teach her. She is quite vocal in her opinion (I say her opinion, it'll be her mothers opinion but you know what I mean!) that school is a waste of time and her mother has apparently always said that no child of hers will go to school. Fair enough. But then she needs educating, not just running wild with a pack of children day in day out with the excuse that "she is learning what she needs to know" Hmm

She has no bedtime at home (the children apparently get told to come in when it gets dark), gets taken to weekend long parties frequently, her mother/mother's partner/their friends smoke weed in front of the children (according to DBro who used to see this when he visited). She really seems to love and relish the basic care she gets when visiting - bathing, hair drying, wrapping up in a towel, painting nails with my DD, choosing new socks and knickers, that sort of thing - and also the routine of 'normal life'.

DNiece is a lovely child, she has good manners and is very bright and articulate. I don't think she is being abused by any stretch, but I do think she is subject to persistent low level neglect and think my DBro should grow a backbone and talk to his ex about educating her properly, washing her, and at the very least finding somewhere to park the bus that has showers and toilets fgs. DBro thinks this would be out of order, he says he let her down and now has no right to tell her mother what to do, he also tells me that their lifestyle is different and that unless his DD is in danger he isn't going to wade in like that. I think he is being a spineless twit and it is never too late to stand up for his own child....

OP posts:
ll31 · 18/05/2013 12:06

Issues like bed time are non issues,filthy too probably-given that op sees nail varnish on 8 yr old as basic care, her ideas of what being filthy is may be different to some. Op appears to have no idea what type of he child is getting,so can't comment on that.

So child is happy,healthy,articulate-don't see neglect tbh. Education may be an issue but we don't have enough info to know.

If I was op,I'd support brother in maintaining relationship .

FJL203 · 18/05/2013 12:06

"The child has no health concerns. If the child was sore and smelly anywhere do you not think the op would have said given that it would validate her concerns." For the umpteenth time FGS!

There, fixed that for you Sock. Wink Grin

IneedAsockamnesty · 18/05/2013 12:08
Grin

Thanks

Ilikethebreeze · 18/05/2013 12:16

I keep reading this thread and going away and coming back again.
It has taken me a while to work out what it is that is bothering me. And it is this.
Yes I get people have alternative lifestyles. And the op cannot and probably should not do much.
I also get the home ed bit.
But I have eventually realised that the bit that is bothering me is that will her niece end up doing any exams.
And if not, as a society, could that be deemed neglectful.

Because, by the time her niece is say 20, if she wants a job, are potential employers going to be put off by a lack of exams assuming that is indeed the case].

Mumsyblouse · 18/05/2013 12:22

Ilike Yes- but how is going wading in saying 'my child isn't taking exams, you've got to put her in school' going to help the situation. Barring abuse or severe neglect (not a bit dirty neglect), there are very few laws about how we bring up our children, for example, there are free schools in which children choose whether to take exams, HEdders who do do exams, those that don't.

This is not the kind of neglect that social services is interested in, it is not the kind that will be up for discussion with the mother, and I think given that the relationship with the brother is rather tenuous, he cannot interfere in any way with the way the mother is bringing up her child without risking losing contact. It's just not worth it- especially if the child presents as polite, happy and bright.

IneedAsockamnesty · 18/05/2013 12:24

And she may very well end up doing exams

Mumsyblouse · 18/05/2013 12:26

And- if you want to be really harsh about it, there are plenty of schools in the country in which the children are in state education for 11 entire years and 30%+ still come out without the 5 A-C required for any type of further qualifications or job except NMW. All of those children are disadvantaged as this child will be except that this child has two caring parents who clearly are interested in her education (you don't accidentally get good at sums)!

I would not live this life it's not for me and if I saw someone else living it I would probably have to bite my tongue, but expressing concern will achieve nothing but alienate the mother and that is too big a risk to take, given he has no legal or other recourse (SS will not be visiting a travellers site to see a hair-clean happy bright but muddy child, even if they do smoke dope).

Rockinhippy · 18/05/2013 12:27

I've know/know plenty of people in the community you are worried about & if your DN has good manners, has some literacy & math skills, no nits or scabies then it sounds to me like in the circumstances the DM is actually doing a bloody good job. If your DN is dirty when she arrives, then its probably down to having a wonderful childhood of playing in fields & woods & running free learning all kinds of interesting, not education based stuff.

I can understand your concern as its a different lifestyle to what you know, but it doesn't make it wrong, nor the DC neglected.

Your DB does the right thing - you all show your DN there are different life choices, ones she can make for herself when she is older if she so chooses.

best to butt out

5madthings · 18/05/2013 12:27

When may well end up doing exams but children that go to school can end up leaving school with no exams/qualifications.

gordyslovesheep · 18/05/2013 12:28

if the child is elected home educated then the LEA will be aware and will check what education she is receiving - plenty of EHE kids take exams, go on to FE and HE and have careers - whether they live in houses or not

VikingLady · 18/05/2013 12:29

She can do exams at college for free if/when she wants to (age 14+ from this September), so it will not stop her getting into university - again, should she want to.

ParadiseChick · 18/05/2013 12:30

Do we afford the heroin user who lives in a tip of a house, with toothless children who attend school sporadically, who are dirty and in poor clothing the same allowances that are being made here?

Mumsyblouse · 18/05/2013 12:30

Oh, there are plenty of children age 8 in full-time education who cannot read and write well (presumably if she struggled with this the OP would mention it) and do sums, plenty. This didn't happen by accident, sorry, it's not just her 'being bright'.

IneedAsockamnesty · 18/05/2013 12:30

And plenty of children in formal state school don't even get put forward for exams.

ExBrightonBell · 18/05/2013 12:30

Ilikethebreeze... not doing exams could be seen as neglectful?! Er, no. Not at all.

The child is only 7 or 8, and as many people have already said, lots of children who have a non traditional education choose to take exams when they are older and do perfectly well.

Indeed, many naice middle class parents send their children to Steiner schools which have a similar approach to lots of home educators, and the children don't have to do exams. I assume you would be ok with that though as it's a proper school and the parents have to pay?

5madthings · 18/05/2013 12:31

The Lea may not be aware and they cannot insist on checking to see if a child is receiving an education.

Ilikethebreeze · 18/05/2013 12:31

I agree I think.

Ilikethebreeze · 18/05/2013 12:32

I was replying to mumsyblouse.
Didnt realise there would be about 8 replies in 5 minutes!

IneedAsockamnesty · 18/05/2013 12:33

Paradise.

A child who is registered with a school by law needs to attend a child who is not registered does not need to.

This child is not toothless nor has poor clothing been mentioned ( and the one your looking for is not poor or dirty clothing its inappropriate clothing)

Heroin is a very different drug.

gordyslovesheep · 18/05/2013 12:34

er no ParadiseChick if the kids are at school but don't attend - because that is different from home educating - that is NOT educating ...different thing

IneedAsockamnesty · 18/05/2013 12:35

5mad it is my understanding that the LA an ask but they cannot demand visual proof.

gordyslovesheep · 18/05/2013 12:36

and the LEA can and do have to establish the child is receiving an education - I have EHE children on my case load and have done many home visits with EWO's

Mumsyblouse · 18/05/2013 12:38

Do we afford the heroin user who lives in a tip of a house, with toothless children who attend school sporadically, who are dirty and in poor clothing the same allowances that are being made here?

Umm, no, because this lady isn't a heroin user! Her child isn't toothless!

And- being very very blunt, there are plenty of children who are really very neglected in the way you describe who do not come to the attention of social services- I hate to mention the case but Tia Sharpe being one of them, mum a crack addict, child attended school sporadically, lived with a gran with a man with 30 convictions - not on SS register at all. I knew a lovely girl who lived up our road with her alcoholic mother who used to lie in the street- she was known to SS but not taken away. The threshold for concern for SS is incredibly high, they will not be interested in this.

So- the only option would be for the brother to express his own concerns- but for what? This mum has deliberately and actively chosen to reject conventional society, saying 'why don't you join conventional society?' is a non-conversation.

He can keep an eye, provide the love and attention and books and fun when he sees her, make sure the situation doesn't deteriorate, but no-one is going to sweep in and make this child live in a house, go to a school and have their nails painted, sorry!

ParadiseChick · 18/05/2013 12:39

But is the lifestyle so different? Many children on estates left to do as they please because the choices their parents make mean they, the parents, can't or won't enforce restrictions.

Home educating properly is a valid route. What's to stop the parents of the children I'm talking about disengaging with formal schooling under the guise of home educating?

Surely then their choices are just different, not inappropriate or neglectful?

5madthings · 18/05/2013 12:40

I home educated my children and I informed the Lea of this, I also invited them into my home to visit and see if they were happy with their 'education' but an Lea cannot insist on this.