to think my DNiece is being neglected and my DBro should do something?

[CrocsNSocks]

My brother has a DD with a woman he had a brief fling with 8 years ago. He has always seen her but irregularly for much of that time as he was struggling with alcoholism and not in a good place himself. He has been sober for the last 2 years and is now engaged and settled with a steady job. I'm posting because he, while he agrees that the situation with his DD is in his words 'not ideal' he feels there's nothing to be gained by any action and I want to canvas opinions to see if I should continue to try and persuade him otherwise!

So onto the details. My DBro was quite young (19) when he met the mother (who was the same age). She lived in a caravan on a nearby new age traveller site at the time, though moved into a flat with DBro when she fell pregnant. Their DD was born after they'd only been together a year and they split when she was 18 mo though things were rocky for most of that time and they didn't live together from when she was 6 mo.

Since then the mother has returned to living on traveller sites. DBro used to travel to wherever she was staying to see DNiece but since he stopped drinking and cut association with his old friends on that scene, she has been coming to stay with him for a week a few times a year instead and so the rest of the family have finally been able to get to know her over the last two years.

DNiece lives with her mother, her mother's partner, her 2 younger siblings, and various dogs in a bus. They are living without proper running water, just a tap in the corner of a field, and with no proper toilets (hole in the ground ones [vom] ) and no shower/bath facilities. She is usually filthy when she arrives for visits as she goes weeks without a proper bath though her hair is looked after really well, strangely and I will say in her mother's favour that she never has nits.

She does not go to school. She can read and write and do basic sums but that's because she is a bright child, not because anyone has bothered to teach her. She is quite vocal in her opinion (I say her opinion, it'll be her mothers opinion but you know what I mean!) that school is a waste of time and her mother has apparently always said that no child of hers will go to school. Fair enough. But then she needs educating, not just running wild with a pack of children day in day out with the excuse that "she is learning what she needs to know"

She has no bedtime at home (the children apparently get told to come in when it gets dark), gets taken to weekend long parties frequently, her mother/mother's partner/their friends smoke weed in front of the children (according to DBro who used to see this when he visited). She really seems to love and relish the basic care she gets when visiting - bathing, hair drying, wrapping up in a towel, painting nails with my DD, choosing new socks and knickers, that sort of thing - and also the routine of 'normal life'.

DNiece is a lovely child, she has good manners and is very bright and articulate. I don't think she is being abused by any stretch, but I do think she is subject to persistent low level neglect and think my DBro should grow a backbone and talk to his ex about educating her properly, washing her, and at the very least finding somewhere to park the bus that has showers and toilets fgs. DBro thinks this would be out of order, he says he let her down and now has no right to tell her mother what to do, he also tells me that their lifestyle is different and that unless his DD is in danger he isn't going to wade in like that. I think he is being a spineless twit and it is never too late to stand up for his own child....

Wuldric" That child cannot hope to be a doctor, a lawyer, an academic ... anything that requires a range of qualifications is closed to her."

A child of 8 isn't going to be taking those sort of qualifications at this point. And it doesn't sound as though this 8yo is behind with anything.

Well juule if her mother doesn't send her to school or properly HE her she isn't going to get any qualifications.

Wuldric,

What a load of rubbish.

My sister was educated like this child she is now a barrister, my brother was also educated in the same way he is now a plastics consultant.

Tooearly people are focusing on that aspect because the op has stated the child is receiving no education that is clearly not the case. The child can't be that filthy if her hair is well cared for and if her teeth were bad the op would have already said because it would have given her complaints some validity.

And I'm pretty sure nobody has said the smoking pot thing is ok but plenty of naice beige wearing people do it all the time with out having a massive drama being made of it. I personally wouldn't and can't get my head around people who do but from a professional perspective its not given much serious consideration at all the police don't even arrest for it unless you have lots or are selling it.

I agree with Juneau. If they lived in a house, had no bedtime, drug use in front of the children, no running water, no schooling; that would be seen very differently.

Wuldric I know many people who had the type of childhood the OP describes and have gone on to top universtites and illusrious careers. DD1 was out of school for years doing much as she pleased. She went onnto do GCCEs at home, doing exceptionally well, and is now taking A levels at college. We know many others who have gone on to OU courses at home after years of the kind of life the OP describes, and then been accepted by top unis.
People here think school and sitting down at a desk from age 4 is the only way. It isn't. The child is clearly adored. The rest are incidentals.

Yes its because they are travellers and embrace an alternative lifestyle that people are trying to show how cool with it they are, most of them would be spitting their cornflakes across their naice kitchens though if you suggested letting little Lucy or Harry run wild, dirty and largely uneducated with few boundaries.

A child psychologist friend once told me, children actually really like the security of routine and boundaries, its silly adults like the nieces mother who get off on the whole, look at the carefree, unfettered existence my child has, thing.

Don't be silly. Our ancestors lived for thousands of years without baths, showers and flush toilets (as millions of people do today throughout the world). And OP has made no mention of body lice, worms or gastro bugs. No, I wouldn't like to live like that because I like my home comforts; but it is not neglect. So the child plays out late, which many children in my street do, which can be very late in up here in the summer. There is no reason to assume she is running wild (with all that that implies) she is simply playing out with other children.
HE can be a bit random, but the child can already read and do sums, so someone is teaching her, so she is likely to progress in future.

If the OP doesn't like it there is nothing she can do, except what she is currently doing which is welcoming this polite well-behaved child into her home during the visits to her dad. Her brother is doing the right thing in maintaining a good relationship with his DD's mother and having DD to visit as often as he can.

OP, I think you need to pick apart a few of the things you are concerned about - look at the ones which genuinely matter and which are just a matter of disagreement over parenting style. Also also try to focus properly on the positive way in which your neice's mother is bringing her up.

Having no bedtime is not neglect - being allowed to play out until late in the evening is generally something that is a matter of individual parenting - I know middle class parents who are not bothered by bedtime. If the child is happy, articulate and 'clean' ie. not got nits/ bugs etc then she is well looked after. As others say, being loved and cared for is what matters.

Why not focus on step by step building a better relationship with the mother? Have you really tried? What about contacting her and saying you would like to put the past behind you and get to know her - but do it totally judgement free. Decide that for a year you will put your concerns aside and try to get to know her better. Do it for your niece.

FJL203 Structured or unstructured, it's semantics really. I don't really care whether an education has a formal structure but the bottom line is that this child is getting a very narrow education which doesn't prepare her for anything other than living on site, and by the sound of what the OP says she is bright and therefore there's every chance her horizons may be broader than this. If, as an adult, she decides she wants to live like this there's no problem.
But the mother is taking it upon herself to narrow this child's horizons by choosing to give her the most rudimentary education (and before anyone else starts on the benefits of home schooling the mum has made it clear she doesn't believe the child needs anything more than a training in how to live on site.)
In its own way this is just as bad as people who choose for religious or cultural reasons decide to take girls out of school early because they should be wives and mothers. The OPs options for dealing with this are limited but let's be honest about this.

Exactly cycling and bigkids. How many of the posters who've said there is nothing wrong with this kind of a life would actually want THEIR kids living like this? A big fat zero, is my guess. It's okay, as long as it's someone else's child.

And what quesadilla said.

All the op says the mum has said is that she believes school is a waste of time and no child of hers will go.

That's not quite the same thing as I will only educate my child to live on a site.

I'm really insulted at being tagged as "Liberal" because of my view, through personal experience, on this one issue.

The Child has no set bedtime - and...?

The Child can read/write do sums, is polite, well mannered, "very bright and articulate.^ So someone's teaching her. Someone's teaching her manners too. It's not the absent parent so I think we might be able to credit the PWC for it, might we not? She has every opportunity to branch out in later life, nothing is closed to her at the age of 8 FGS.

The Child is educated in what appears to be an autonomous, child-led, holistic and unstructured HE style. Go read up on it rather than panning it because it doesn't conform to your norms.

The Child is dirty. Newsflash. Kids playing in fields, climbing trees, running around playing with dogs, they get dirty. Dirt washes off.

The Child has no bath or running water. Neither do my kids when they stay in a similar environment from time to time (not with travellers, I add, I'm not defending the mum because she's a traveller). Like my kids this one has clean hair, no nits and the OP reports no ill treatment or body conditions related to uncleanliness. I survived for 14 years without a bathroom or running hot water. My mother was not neglectful, I did not suffer abuse. I never suffered nits, body lice or anything of the sort. A tin bath and a strip wash can keep you just as clean you know.

Cycling, what's all this bollocks about body lice etc etc which you're reeling off? There's no more reason to suspect that the child has these than there is to suspect that you have. The OP says she's dirty (refer back to tree climbing, fields and playing with dogs), not bloody diseased!

And I've already said that the drug taking, with or without children present, is a disgrace. Pretty remarkable for a "Liberal", eh? Some of you appear to be making the huge mistake that the defenders of this mother are all middle class lefties. You're wrong on both counts.

And juneau, since my kids and I between us have pretty much experienced all of this child's lifestyle, your prediction of a big fat zero wanting it for our kids is wrong.

OP the two things that worried about your post are: 1) lack of education Dniece is getting 2)druggies smoking infront of her.

I think if it where my child, I would try to take her away from that environment. Will it be possible though? Will the law be on your brother's side?

If he loses the battle, he might also lose contact with DD which would be detrimental to her.

I would support Dniece as much as you can whilst she is in your DB's care, hope that she will be clever enough to make the right choices when she is a grown up.

*Correction - all except the drug taking. Anyone doing that in front of my kids wouldn't be around us for long.

Exactly quesadilla. Life is tough enough once you become an adult, and extremely tough indeed I would imagine if you've had no sort of proper education...and let's be grown ups about this, running around on a travellers site learning about Nature and a few sums is not a proper education. Her mother sounds fundamentally selfish and ignorant. We are hugely fortunate to live in a country where every child has the right to a free education. There are children in other countries who would give anything to go to school. Education is so important and opens so many doors for you as an adult, yet this silly woman dismisses it as a waste of time. Poor girl.

FLJ, body lice prefer to live on dirty bodies and clothes. Body lice cause itching and discomfort. I expect in the magic holistic land some of you inhabit though hygiene is over rated. Again, sorry to burst your bubbled, but you should really, er, try to keep your child clean. If there's no running water give her a wipe down at the end of the day....sounds like she's too busy smoking weed though

She's clearly doing that the child has clean hair and no reported health issues related to hygiene

The OP says that she is filthy.

But so filthy she has clean hair has never had nits and no hygiene related issues.

People overuse the word filthy.

And poor hygiene is linked to poor health. Amazed that I'm even having to write that tbh. My ds went away for a few days once to stay with friend (never again) and was given no access to baths or showers and was too young to really take it upon herself. When she came home she was itchy, sore and red down below, and smelt. Can't believe some of you are defending not keeping your child clean. Yes it sounds as if the mother washes and brushes her.hair but her body needs to be kept clean too! For health reasons but also social ones.

My ds not ds.

"Filthy" is subjective. It's not a state I want to be in but I can manage it if I'm playing silly buggers with my youngest, out climbing trees, making rope swings, paddling in the stream. Or at least my mother would describe it as such. I'd say we were "dirty". So, the child is the OP's version of "filthy". Not mine, my mother's or yours.

The child's not suffering any health related issues as a result of being dirty. Being up in arms about body lice is all very well if the child has them. Until the OP tells us any more than the lass is in her opinion "filthy" all you're doing is overreacting or extrapolating, Cycling.

The child has no health concerns. If the child was sore and smelly anywhere do you not think the op would have said given that it would validate her concerns.

NB I think the clue to the OP's views and her definition of "filthy" might be better understood by considering the fact that her description of 8 year olds painting their nails is given as "basic care" and "normal".