To think, actually, WOH gets harder as they get older.

[Tournament]

I've worked (at least p-t) all my life. It was a choice for me, I wanted to get out to work, keep my career etc, although I did very much step back for a while, I always kept my hand in IYSWIM.

When DC were tiny, there was always some feeling of guilt at not always being there, but the day to day practicalities were easy. You got them up and dressed, bundled them in the car, handed them over to GP, childminder or nursery and then it was someone else's job to do everything for them until it was practically bedtime. They were cared for, fed and entertained without me ever really having to do anything. (When I was at work). I'd collect on my way home, take them home and put them to bed.

Now they're 9 & 11, there's homework to supervise, clubs to organise, taxi services to provide, sports and school events to watch (or to have to explain you can't) friendship issues or other worries to listen to and if I'm not around after school, they can't have friends back and they can't go to other's houses.

it's always a bad thing for children though, so it irks to hear Xenia talking about positive healthy relationships when every study ever carried out since studies began indicates that divorce harms children. Xenia says that 2 fulltime working parents is best for kids, but with those divorce stats, who's she kidding?

But there is no link I'm aware of between working parents and divorce?

Yes financially independent women are more likely to have the freedom to leave a bad relationship so maybe that's why more are divorced! I know which I would rather be - always have the choice and money gives you autonomy if the worst should happen and your relationship break down.

As several have mentioned below, the problem is that childcare and so the career sacrifice to do a less well paid job / part time / one with less prospects nearly always fall on women. Why should it be ok for dads to just see their kids at 7pm and at weekends but not for mums?
Also many men do turn sexist once kids come along.

I reckon the best way to combat this is to make sure you earn more money than the man you marry BEFORE you have kids - then you can't be forced to give up your career automatically. All women can do this - make wise choices - women are already considered subservient in society so we need to push hard the other way to balance this out!

I would never sacrifice any part of my career unless my OH also committed a similar sacrifice (eg both work 4 days, or WFH one day). That's a rule to protect myself and also to keep out relationship on an equal footing.

I also think that both working only puts a strain on the relationship in the way that it's busy and stressful to juggle everything BUT I read that relationships where one is sah and the other commutes to work in another town have the highest failure rate because they end up living separate lives. I think the traditional separate roles make it harder to empathise and admire each other, even if your OH works nearby.

"where did I quote divorce stats for full time working parents?
Oh, that's right. I didn't. What I said is that 2 full time working parents puts huge strain on marriage."

Your argument that having two parents working was bad for kids relied on this: saying the children need two parents together, parents more likely to get divorced if both working, ergo both working bad for kids. Your argument relied on the premise that both working leads to divorce.
Hth.

There are numerous threads on mumsnet too from women saying they are unhappy with dh's attitude now they are sahm, or that they resent the uneven distribution of money or leisure time - unless someone has the time to trawl through the site tallying how many dissatisfied threads are started by wohm as opposed to sahm, I don't think we can use mumsnet as conclusive evidence of anything!

If your working its much less likely have the types of arguments you read on here about on here about housework/childcare. When one is at home the default is often they are the skivvy, and the working partner gets to go out more and have an easy ride.

If your both working parents, and always has been then ime the set up is much more equal. It depends what you want but I dont want to show my daughters that all I do is run around after others completely sacrificing myself like some other mums I know.

from the couples I know who divorced, all of them (except one)had 2 fulltime workers. The couple I know best, it had nothing to do with the financial freedom of the woman (they're both screwed financially by divorce so she'd chuckle at that notion, frankly) and everything to do with them being ships in the night. They both commuted, dropping their child (they only had one child, should be easier right?) off with cm at 7am, picking him up at 6.30, trying to do everything (having it all not the same as doing it all, sadly)...they grew apart and he is now in a new relationship, has had another baby and his girlfriend is a sahm. Coincidence? Depending on where you're coming from, you can read all sorts of reasons into the divorce rate of 2 fulltime working households with kids, but ultimately need to remember the affect divorce has on kids, which is always shattering, no matter how many times people harp on about 'resilient kids'

and yes, have a look at the study upthread. 2 fulltime working parents = considerably higher divorce rate. Yes, working women might have more financial freedom, but that's often not enough to finance 2 households following divorce. That's not the real issue, as far as I've witnessed. The real issue is the stress of managing a fulltime career, a house, children and the balls come crashing down when the juggling becomes unsustainable.

and to give this thread some perspective: this is in response to Xenia ad Infinitum saying that the best thing for children is always 2 fulltime working parents. From the child's perspective, this is absolutely not true.

I am not sure which bit I have found hardest. Or fear, that I have the worst to come -teenages - Kevin and Perry type moods and hormonal angst.
I found toddler hard. I limit ds1's activities, so I only do drop off a couple of times a week. Ds2 starts school, so then I will soon have 4 activities to contend with. And thtas only limiting them to 2 each. Plus school short notice for trips and mufti days and dressing up days, drives me mad.
Many of ds1's friends can not come round for tea because they only have one night off a week!! - busy 6 out of 7 nights, so I am told. - inbetween, guitar practice, swimming, judo, violin, football all weekend etc. Apparently.

You are so so right! My baby is perfectly happy at pt childcare but the activities of my older boys take some coordinating. That's also without the 'school day' things they are horribly disappointed about if you can't attend. This week at Infants and Juniors we have a funrun (today), a school play (thurs), a picnic (thurs) and a maths morning (fri ), thankfully I'm on maty leave at the mo but it'll be nigh on impossible when I'm back at work.

Stepawayfromthescreen - Thats all anecdotal. My life is a breeze compared to before as the housework has gone down by about 70% as no ones in.

If a persons marriage is so weak that working full time stresses them out then it wouldnt last death, illness, or actual real stresses anyway.

'My life is a breeze'
Said no working parent.
Ever.

Mom, that's a rather unfair quote. The press never print what you say. First of all it isn't what was said. Neither of us would ever use that appalling word "kids" (verboten in my home) and secondly their father worked until 6 at school and 1 - 2 evenings a week and taught pupils all day on Saturday (and often played the organ on Sunday). We shared a work ethic. It is however accurate that as he worked near where we lived he usually got home first but even so I was always back around 6.30 just about most days and then from 94 worked from home.

Also it is potentially an outing that quote so I'd rather people did not do that.

and then from 94 worked from home

Surely you must see that wohming until the age of 94 is only available to a limited few?

Xenia it does out you, a quick googling of that quote leads to your personal website with names, addresses and email etc. so I hope Mumsnet removes it quickly.
Xenia, why can't you just accept that other people don't want or envy your life? You might enjoy being exceedingly busy and outsourcing the children, seeing a lot less of them. But most people are not happy with that sort of existence. I work a lot less than you do, with fewer children, and feel stretched. Also, it's quite dishonest of you to imply that you have the perfect family life, because you didn't stay together.
Yes, sorry, that is personal. But you've mentioned it before on here, and it's a crucial missing part of your argument.
I absolutely abhor your attitude to people who look after children and do domestic work. I assume you feel this way about the women who run around after you so you can work 13 hours a day? That they are poorly educated numpties happy to contend with the dross drudgery which is so beneath you? You might have scaled the dizzy heights career wise, but your attitude to other human beings is shockingly lacking in empathy and tolerance. I don't think the career achievements mean a single thing if you have such a negative attitude to other human beings.

and if we were all working from home setting up our own businesses etc. who'd teach your kids in their private schools and treat them when you take them to the hospital etc? Who'd serve you in Waitrose and who'd take your rubbish away? Oh, that's right. Those silly fools who take those poorly paid 15-50k jobs! The stupid idiots!

but to be fair, I am seriously impressed that you can earn hundreds of thousands of pounds and own your own island whilst posting so frequently on forums like this!

I have no history of mental illness, but it is quite possible that I would have topped myself had I had to stay at home. I like a clean house. I even quite like cleaning. I like my children.

But 24 hours a day doing that would have sent me round the twist. Where's the adrenaline rush? Where's the joy of a complex problem? Where's the stress - everyone needs a bit of external stress just to keep motivated and keep going. A lot of career people feel that way. That's the gulf in comprehension.

There's the money aspect too. If you earn over £100k, which does not seem a lot to me - then it actually doesn't buy you a lot. Particularly in London. I don't know how Xenia managed to send 5 kids to private schools if she only earns £100k a year.

everyone needs a bit of external stress just to keep motivated and keep going

No they don't!
The time I spend at home is far more relaxing (although not without complex problems or stress, lord knows where you get that amusing generalization from!) than the time I spend at work.
And if you 'would have topped myself' well.. that says more about you, your personality, lack of imagination and motivation on your part, perhaps. And frankly, if you've never done the sahm thing beyond a few months maternity leave, you're poorly qualified to judge.
And as for adrenaline rushes... perhaps it helps that I'm an older Mother. I find adrenaline rushes somewhat overrated these days!

I'm 46 - that's quite old really :)

I don't believe that a sahm faces any complex problem-solving. Just a bit of logistics, a lot of squalling children and housework. So no, it wouldn't suit me and I do think that many women are being short-changed from having lovely challenging careers. Don't get me wrong, I like baking, but it's not remotely challenging.

We are digressing though - as we so often do when Xenia introduces the wohm versus sahm thing. Yes, older children require just as much attention in a different way. It doesn't get any easier.

Just a bit of logistics, a lot of squalling children and housework

I spent eight years as a sahm and I don't recognise this description at all.
How many years have you spent as a sahm, Wuldric?
Oh that's right, none because it would make you top yourself
Sigh.

I spent 8 whole months :) Four months for each child :)

Towards the end of each maternity leave, I found myself cooking ever more complex and elaborate meals. Just to keep myself occupied, really. At the end of one such effort (okay I admit that three courses is OTT on a Tuesday night) DH looked at me, and said 'I can't eat any more. It's delicious, but I can't eat any more. You absolutely need to go back to work!' Was true :)

Don't think there is a better way it depends on the people. I can see how working couples might grow apart if they are like ships in the night, you have to schedule dates, but equally if one works and one doesn't there is more scope for resentment and even being left for someone "more exciting" outside the world of kids and housework. It is what works for your relationship. I would resent it like hell if I stayed at home and id be bored. My oh would also find me less interesting as I would myself feel that way.

Unfortunately there are not many jobs (with prospects etc) that allow you to help your kids with hwk etc and be around a bit more.

Definitely helps to get more senior before you have kids (I had my dd young and it's hard to compete with childless people).

I simply encourage women to take their rightful place in the world along side men as equals who aspire to be leading surgeons not just care home workers. Too many women have far too low expectations.