to think that men should not be referred to as 'Asian' when they are not in fact Asian

[PatPig]

Examples (disturbing content warning):

www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/may/14/oxford-child-sex-ring-police-investigation
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2324621/Girl-12-branded-hairpin-raped-sold-sex-600-hour.html

According to this:

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-22164676

The leaders of the gang are:

'thought to originate from Eritrea, in East Africa, but he grew up in his parents' house on the Cowley Road.'

Since when was Eritrea in Asia?

The Telegraph goes with:

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/10057543/Asian-grooming-gang-convicted-of-appalling-acts-of-depravity-on-children.html

"Asian grooming gang convicted of appalling acts of depravity on children"

yet in the article concedes:

"Seven men of Asian or North African origin were found guilty of grooming"

It seems like inaccurate and prejudicial language to me, especially when Asia contains 2/3 of the population of the world yet 'Asians' are obviously an ethnic minority in the UK.

I havent "assumed" that MANY muslims think that white woman are trash. I know it to be true. From the MANY that I personally know and have heard say it.

MANY does not equal most or all. It means what it says.

squeaky
And what percentage of the total population of muslims in the UK or the world do you know.

At best you can say many of the muslims of my acquaintance appear to think...

Chazs People on this thread have assumed that many or most muslims think that white women are trash. I have directed you to the posts.

Yes and I responded to you that I am directing my attention to the OP who complained about "inaccurate and prejudicial language" in the media.

As for this thread, people are entitled to express their opinions on this thread based on their experience but as far as I'm concerned my interest is in the accuracy or otherwise of the press coverage.

FYI, I will tell you a Hindu colleague told me that they think white women are trash. Up to that point in my youth I had no idea and no prejudice. It was a total shock and insult.

FYI, I will tell you a Hindu colleague told me that they think white women are trash. Up to that point in my youth I had no idea and no prejudice. It was a total shock and insult.

And it didn't occur to you at all that your Hindu colleague might have been influenced by his/her own prejudices against certain groups?

olgaga
I don't think anyone would assume that most Muslims do this, or that most Asian men do this, any more than they might assume that most celebrities were paedophiles or that most men are rapists.

You didn't mention the press in that statement. Whether or not the press coverage assumes it, it doesn't alter the fact that those assumptions are being made and so is the press coverage encouraging or undermining those assumptions.

I'm not for one minute suggesting that you share any of those assumptions but lets not pretend that they don't exist.

Melika, do you mean your Hindu colleague thought that about white women? Or that he accused Muslim men of thinking that way?

"At best you can say many of the muslims of my acquaintance appear to think"

which bit of "that I personally know" was difficult for you to understand?

I have worked with many muslim women over the years who would confirm that that is the opinion of their husband and the males in their family, and it is also sadly the opinion of many muslim women too in the UK.

The debate over the burkha brought out a lot of comments over the difference between women dressing modestly and the western appearance of women who show their arms, legs, hair etc.

The muslim way of life does not condone women dressing in a way that is not considered to be modest. Western women, particularly younger ones are believed to be cheap because of the way they dress and behave in public.

I havent "assumed" that MANY muslims think that white woman are trash. I know it to be true. From the MANY that I personally know and have heard say it.

Your first sentence is not qualified as to be muslims that you personally know. You use your experience of muslims you know to extrapolate to millions of other muslims.
Which bit of this is difficult to understand?

i find it really disturbing to see all the posts :- well i had a friend who knew an asian and they were not very nice ( paraphrasing obviously ) ..what is the point of that statement ?
Because you heard/know of a few people with shit attitudes that is somehow indicative of most people in that community - it is not.

I am asian and grew up around racist comment and being spat at ( was in primary school at the time - nice ) - i do not now believe that I know how all white people think or believe that they all hold the same views.

I do think that the one thing that all these case have in common be it:- grooming cases, media (js) , music school, catholic church, care homes is that where ever there is a situation where there are vulnerable young people with adults that have power over them, there can be abuse.
That is the common factor - not race/religion all these cases show that people from all walks of life can be abusers.

What we should be looking at, is how to protect children.

I agree with bambini, i also grew up in a pretty racist area despite there being a good mix of ethnicities. Had my fair share of abuse (eggs thrown on me, foul language, arsey shopkeepers) and a girl i know had her hijab yanked off. But it never occurred to me to lump all white people in the same category

Squeaky, i dont deny that certain individuals will have some fucked up views and misconceptions about others, but then that goes for every ethnic group. The people you work with have no right to decide they can speak for all Asians/pakistanis/muslims, I for one, dont think less of anyone with a different skin colour to me, or who chooses to dress differently. And the same goes for all my family MALE members included, my friends, relatives, neighbours, and trust me I am pretty sure I know a heck of alot more Asians/pakistanis than you and at a deeper level. I can imagine some immature people will express dislike for western clothing for reasons such as envy (we cant really wear shorts on a hot day for example) or it could be a way of trying to justify their beliefs in their own head. But how can it seriously lead to someone thinking a person in a way deserves to be abused because of a particular dresscode. It doesn't even make sense to me.

"I do think that the one thing that all these case have in common be it:- grooming cases, media (js) , music school, catholic church, care homes is that where ever there is a situation where there are vulnerable young people with adults that have power over them, there can be abuse.
That is the common factor - not race/religion all these cases show that people from all walks of life can be abusers.

What we should be looking at, is how to protect children."

Absolutely, meaniebambini. I couldn't agree more.

"I do think that the one thing that all these case have in common be it:- grooming cases, media (js) , music school, catholic church, care homes is that where ever there is a situation where there are vulnerable young people with adults that have power over them, there can be abuse.
That is the common factor - not race/religion all these cases show that people from all walks of life can be abusers.

What we should be looking at, is how to protect children."

I agree too. Well said, meanie

I'm not for one minute suggesting that you share any of those assumptions but lets not pretend that they don't exist.

I'm afraid my interest in this thread is purely technical with regard to the media coverage, which was set out in the OP.

Obviously racism exists. Misogyny exists too, and given that women are around 50% of the whole population, comprising all ethnicities and religions, I actually think misogyny is a far greater problem than the fact that men from North Africa were labelled "Asian".

'Oxford sex gang' seems more accurate, as per this story:

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2326381/Loving-parents-An-utterly-respectable-home-So-did-Rachel-11-fall-prey-Oxford-sex-gang.html

Although they still persist with the 'South Asian' line, even though South Asia includes Indians and Sri Lankan, who AFAIK haven't been involved.

I think Bina Shah has written very honestly and eloquently here about "Asian paedophile rings".

As a Pakistani Muslim woman she talks knowledgeably about is entitled the issues which the media generally shy away from, for fear of causing offence.

It's good to see Muslim commentators speaking out in this way.

"Yes, there are patriarchal, misogynist attitudes towards all women amongst certain subsets of the British Muslim population ? and Pakistani men. Yes, these certain men have been taught by their culture that white girls have no value, but "their" culture is not representative of all Pakistani Muslim culture. Theirs is a culture of racism, misogyny, tribalism, and sexual vulgarity which most Pakistani Muslims shudder at, at home and abroad.

You couldn't possibly call what these men practiced, or were taught in their mosques "Islam" ? it is a distortion of cartoonishly evil proportions, created and perpetuated for their own convenience. In fact, anyone with even the most basic knowledge of Islam will know that the Quran exhorts people to treat women and orphans with care and consideration ? orphans especially. These vulnerable girls, out on the streets, with no family life to speak of and parents who were either absent or uncaring, should have been seen by these men as symbolic orphans, rather than prey ? if only sexual predators were able to make such fine distinctions."

I agree with this.

Yabvu stop micro analysing.

The most important generalisation is that the perpretrators were MEN. Like the celebrity abusers.

We have no idea how far race was a factor. How far they deliberately targetted girls of a certain racial type, or how far they simply targetted girls who were there, had no-one to look out for them, and who had been so badly let down by individuals and society that they thought the treatment they endured was to be expected.

The men who failed to investigate WHY a 12 year old was being passed around like a sexula commodity, or WHY a 12 year old would simply not press charges - do we know the ethnicity of them? Do we know the ethnicity of the lawyers and barrristers who repeatedly asked the victims to admit to lying?

If we KNOW race to have been a factor, then it is relevant to report in these terms. If not, then race should be reported in all cases. As in 'white celebrity abuses child after Tp of The Pops'.

I mean 'how far or at all'.

The most important generalisation is that the perpretrators were MEN.

Yes but that's not actually news, is it?

Dog bites man: Not news.
Man bites dog: News.

"The men who failed to investigate WHY a 12 year old was being passed around like a sexula commodity, or WHY a 12 year old would simply not press charges - do we know the ethnicity of them?"

No, not men, women and men, but mostly women.

In most cases those responsible for the welfare of vulnerable children are women. E.g., Lynne Jones who resigned over failures to protect children in Rochdale, Cheryl Eastwood, who was given early retirement for the same reaso, and others.

In the police, while the majority of senior police are men, women police are far more likely to be assigned to cases involving the abuse of girls, for obvious reasons.

And btw race is inseparable from policing, due to the way that policing has developed since the Scarman Report.

As an example, if a man attacked another man, then if both men were white, then that would be a simple assault case.

However, if the attacker was white, and the victim was not, then the racial issue would become live, and the offence would be investigated for race, and potentially much more serious.

If a white man on Top of the Pops abused a white girl, then there is no possible racial element to that offence. So it would be wrong to say 'white pop star abuses', not least because more than 90% of people in this country are white - it's implied.

Examples of how race poisons the policing process:

"Police went to a house outside which a father was demanding the release of his daughter, who was inside with a group of British Pakistani adults. Officers found the girl, 14, who had been drugged, under a bed. The father and his daughter were arrested for racial harassment and assault respectively. Police left, leaving three men at the house with two more girls."

[In Rotherham] "the town?s safeguarding children board censored a report into the murder of a 17-year-old girl to conceal the ethnicity of the British Pakistani men suspected of using her for sex from the age of 11."

Race is never merely a fact about a case in the way that 'The offender had brown eyes', it has far more implications than that, due to the body of legislation relating to race that we have.

So if you think that the issue is that we don't know that whether these men chose these girls because they were right, or merely because they were vulnerable, you've missed the point.

The issue is actually with the investigation of the offences, the prosecution of the offenders, and here it is absolutely undeniable, and impossible that race is not a factor, simply because modern policing is obsessed with race, to the extent that if you wish to volunteer for the police, half your training is diversity training, and only half actual police training. It is impossible for policing not to be affected by race, unless all those involved are white.

race and policing may be inseparable but it still does not stop the police from pursuing criminals. if the white police chooses not to prosecute criminals with the backing of the white social services in some backward slum of a town, take it up with them. no decent person of any description would allow these filthy people to go unpunished. these crimes are of such magnitude that there is no excuse that any so called police force not to have prosecuted them.

diversity training does not take up half of all training time.

all the crybabying coming from posters saying that you can't call the criminal child molesters muslims, or asking who it is that calls white women sluts is a selfish diversion from the fact that these CHILDREN were abused for years. stop indulging yourselves and concentrate on prosecuting and then deporting this trash if possible.

Creighton, police volunteers do a two day training course, of which one days is diversity training. This is indeed half.

I think you are missing the point regarding race. Undoubtedly it is white liberals in social services and the police (or setting their policies) that are to blame for public bodies backing away from issues that have a racial element (by contrast, the police have no issues tackling football hooligans, who are almost exclusively white). Equally, the journalist in my OP was probably white.

(Certain) Whites dictate the racial agenda in this country, but where that agenda is to ignore issues because there is some racial element, that is the problem. Not that Muslim men are a scourge, or anything like that. It is the white liberal response to crimes in certain groups - grooming and abuse of young girls should not be an intractable issue, anymore than football violence was (it still exists, but it has been greatly reduced), but it has been because of white liberalism essentially.