Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to think that men should not be referred to as 'Asian' when they are not in fact Asian

230 replies

PatPig · 15/05/2013 10:26

Examples (disturbing content warning):

www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/may/14/oxford-child-sex-ring-police-investigation
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2324621/Girl-12-branded-hairpin-raped-sold-sex-600-hour.html

According to this:

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-22164676

The leaders of the gang are:

'thought to originate from Eritrea, in East Africa, but he grew up in his parents' house on the Cowley Road.'

Since when was Eritrea in Asia?

The Telegraph goes with:

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/10057543/Asian-grooming-gang-convicted-of-appalling-acts-of-depravity-on-children.html

"Asian grooming gang convicted of appalling acts of depravity on children"

yet in the article concedes:

"Seven men of Asian or North African origin were found guilty of grooming"

It seems like inaccurate and prejudicial language to me, especially when Asia contains 2/3 of the population of the world yet 'Asians' are obviously an ethnic minority in the UK.

OP posts:
meaniebambini · 16/05/2013 10:55

Firstly what happened to those poor girl was awful and these men deserve everything that they get.
But putting that to one side as no one is disputing the horror of what happened to them.
The question i would like to ask for those posters that think the OP is unreasonable is this -
If the gang had been made up of five white men and two asian would you be happy for them to be labelled as a 'white gang' ?
nah didn't think so.

olgaga · 16/05/2013 10:57

Chaz, can you give us an example of where all adherents of any religion have been labelled as potential abusers because of the actions of a few.

olgaga · 16/05/2013 10:59

five white men and two asian would you be happy for them to be labelled as a 'white gang' ?

I don't see a problem with that. Mainly white with a couple of asian hangers-on? No. What would be the problem?

It would distinguish that particular gang from the mainly Asian gangs we hear about, which would be newsworthy in itself.

nailak · 16/05/2013 11:03

newsworthy? so you've heard of this gang below? where is the thread about it?

www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/jul/22/how-racism-takes-root

By now surely everyone knows the case of the eight men convicted of picking vulnerable underage girls off the streets, then plying them with drink and drugs before having sex with them. A shocking story. But maybe you haven't heard. Because these sex assaults did not take place in Rochdale, where a similar story led the news for days in May, but in Derby earlier this month. Fifteen girls aged 13 to 15, many of them in care, were preyed on by the men. And though they were not working as a gang, their methods were similar ? often targeting children in care and luring them with, among other things, cuddly toys. But this time, of the eight predators, seven were white, not Asian. And the story made barely a ripple in the national media.

Of the daily papers, only the Guardian and the Times reported it. There was no commentary anywhere on how these crimes shine a light on British culture, or how middle-aged white men have to confront the deep flaws in their religious and ethnic identity. Yet that's exactly what played out following the conviction in May of the "Asian sex gang" in Rochdale, which made the front page of every national newspaper. Though analysis of the case focused on how big a factor was race, religion and culture, the unreported story is of how politicians and the media have created a new racial scapegoat. In fact, if anyone wants to study how racism begins, and creeps into the consciousness of an entire nation, they need look no further.

Imagine you were living in a town of 20,000 people ? the size of, say, Penzance in Cornwall ? and one day it was discovered that one of its residents had been involved in a sex crime. Would it be reasonable to say that the whole town had a cultural problem, that it needed to address the scourge ? that anyone not doing so was part of a "conspiracy of silence"? But the intense interest in the Rochdale story arose from a January 2011 Times "scoop" that was based on the conviction of at most 50 British Pakistanis out of a total UK population of 1.2 million, just one in 24,000: one person per Penzance.

Make no mistake, the Rochdale crimes were vile, and those convicted deserve every year of their sentences. But where, amid all the commentary, was the evidence that this is a racial issue; that there's something inherently perverted about Muslim or Asian culture?

Even the Child Protection and Online Protection Centre (Ceop), which has also studied potential offenders who have not been convicted, has only identified 41 Asian gangs (of 230 in total) and 240 Asian individuals ? and they are spread across the country. But, despite this, a new stereotype has taken hold: that a significant proportion of Asian men are groomers (and the rest of their communities know of it and keep silent).

But if it really is an "Asian" thing, how come Indians don't do it? If it's a "Pakistani" thing, how come an Afghan was convicted in the Rochdale case? And if it's a "Muslim" thing, how come it doesn't seem to involve anyone of African or Middle Eastern origin? The standard response to anyone who questions this is: face the facts, all those convicted in Rochdale were Muslim. Well, if one case is enough to make such a generalisation, how about if all the members of a gang of armed robbers were white; or cybercriminals; or child traffickers? (All three of these have happened.) Would we be so keen to "face the facts" and make it a problem the whole white community has to deal with? Would we have articles examining what it is about Britishness or Christianity or Europeanness, that makes people so capable of such things?

In fact, Penzance had not just one paedophile, but a gang of four. They abused 28 girls, some as young as five, and were finally convicted two years ago. All were white. And last month, at a home affairs select committee, deputy children's commissioner Sue Berelowitz quoted a police officer who had told her that "there isn't a town, village or hamlet in which children are not being sexually exploited".

Whatever the case, we know that abuse of white girls is not a cultural or religious issue because there is no longstanding history of it taking place in Asia or the Muslim world.

How did middle-aged Asian men from tight-knit communities even come into contact with white teenage girls in Rochdale? The main cultural relevance in this story is that vulnerable, often disturbed, young girls, regularly out late at night, often end up in late-closing restaurants and minicab offices, staffed almost exclusively by men. After a while, relationships build up, with the men offering free lifts and/or food. For those with a predatory instinct, sexual exploitation is an easy next step. This is an issue of what men can do when away from their own families and in a position of power over badly damaged young people.

It's a story repeated across Britain, by white and other ethnic groups: where the opportunity arises, some men will take advantage. The precise method, and whether it's an individual or group crime, depends on the particular setting ? be they priests, youth workers or networks on the web.

Despite all we know about racism, genocide and ethnic cleansing, the Rochdale case showed how shockingly easy it is to demonise a community. Before long, the wider public will believe the problem is endemic within that race/religion, and that anyone within that group who rebuts the claims is denying this basic truth. Normally, one would expect a counter-argument to force its way into the discussion. But in this case the crimes were so horrific that right-thinking people were naturally wary of being seen to condone them. In fact, the reason I am writing this is that I am neither Asian nor Muslim nor Pakistani, so I cannot be accused of being in denial or trying to hide a painful truth. But I am black, and I know how racism works; and, more than that, I have a background in maths and science, so I know you can't extrapolate a tiny, flawed set of data and use it to make a sweeping generalisation.

I am also certain that, if the tables were turned and the victims were Asian or Muslim, we would have been subjected to equally skewed "expert" commentary asking: what is wrong with how Muslims raise girls? Why are so many of them on the streets at night? Shouldn't the community face up to its shocking moral breakdown?

While our media continue to exclude minority voices in general, such lazy racial generalisations are likely to continue. Even the story of a single Asian man acting alone in a sex case made the headlines. As in Derby this month, countless similar cases involving white men go unreported.

We have been here before, of course: in the 1950s, West Indian men were labelled pimps, luring innocent young white girls into prostitution. By the 1970s and 80s they were vilified as muggers and looters. And two years ago, Channel 4 ran stories, again based on a tiny set of data, claiming there was an endemic culture of gang rape in black communities. The victims weren't white, though, so media interest soon faded. It seems that these stories need to strike terror in the heart of white people for them to really take off.

What is also at play here is the inability of people, when learning about a different culture or race, to distinguish between the aberrations of a tiny minority within that group, and the normal behaviour of a significant section. Some examples are small in number but can be the tip of a much wider problem: eg, knife crime, which is literally the sharp end of a host of problems affecting black communities ranging from family breakdown, to poverty, to low school achievement and social exclusion.

But in Asia, Pakistan or Islam there is no culture of grooming or sex abuse ? any more than there is anywhere else in the world ? so the tiny number of cases have no cultural significance. Which means those who believe it, or perpetuate it, are succumbing to racism, much as they may protest. Exactly the same mistake was made after 9/11, when the actions of a tiny number of fanatics were used to cast aspersions against a 1.5 billion-strong community worldwide. Motives were questioned: are you with us or the terrorists? How fundamental are your beliefs? Can we trust you?

Imagine if, after Anders Breivik's carnage in Norway last year, which he claimed to be in defence of the Christian world, British people were repeatedly asked whether they supported him? Lumped together in the same white religious group as the killer and constantly told they must renounce him, or explain why we should believe that their type of Christianity ? even if they were non-believers ? is different from his. "It's nothing to do with me", most people would say. But somehow that answer was never good enough when given by Muslims over al-Qaida. And this hectoring was self-defeating because it caused only greater alienaton and resentment towards the west and, in particular, its foreign policies.

Ultimately, the urge to vilify groups of whom we know little may be very human, and helps us bond with those we feel are "like us". But if we are going to deal with the world as it is, and not as a cosy fantasyland where our group is racially and culturally supreme, we have to recognise when sweeping statements are false.

And if we truly care about the sexual exploitation of girls, we need to know that we must look at all communities, across the whole country, and not just at those that play to a smug sense of superiority about ourselves.

meaniebambini · 16/05/2013 11:09

olgaga - hmm so as long as the majority is one group then we can label them all - is that how its should work ?
Interesting math there , is there a ratio where its ok to group people that i was't aware of ?

excellent post nailak

ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 16/05/2013 11:12

Olgaga

I suggest you read melika's post of 15th [email protected]

poppycock @ 16.43 which does say many not all

squeakytoy @ 22.47 again saying many not all

These are just a few of the generalisations that I have noticed. There are hundreds of millions of muslim men, its nonsensical to suggest that any of us know what most of them think.

FreyaSnow · 16/05/2013 11:16

Did any of you actually bother to read the articles the OP was complaining about. Or did you want to just denounce the whole thing as racist so not bother?

In the Guardian, it mentions one of the victims made a report that she had been abused by Asian men. Presumably she did not specify the exact ethnicity of the men because she was unable to be very specific when she was reporting the child sexual abuse committed against her. With the exception of the Telegraph, all the references solely to Asians were in this kind of context in the reports. It is nothing to do with demonising a whole group of people or making out the African brothers were in fact Asian.

There are all kind of generalisations being taken on this thread from the Rochdale case in order to make assumptions about the girls and their responses which do not match up with what happened in this case at all. I am not surprised the girls were ignored by social workers etc when I see some of the remarks on this thread. It seems people will invent racism that hasn't even happened but are quite willing to stereotype children in care.

LessMissAbs · 16/05/2013 11:27

I don't think statistics and using ratios is inherently racist. I would call a gang of 7 individuals, 5 of whom were white, and 2 of whom were Asian, perpetrating rape on young woman, a "white gang". Or a "gang of white men". True, the insertion of the word "predominately" would be a more accurate identifier, but if there comes a point when scrutinising newspaper headlines for offensive terms becomes more important than discussing the crimes themselves, then that's when you get into the realms of applying some esoteric notion of positive discrimination, in an almost prescriptive manner, which is not enshrined in law.

Nailak Even the Child Protection and Online Protection Centre (Ceop), which has also studied potential offenders who have not been convicted, has only identified 41 Asian gangs (of 230 in total) and 240 Asian individuals ? and they are spread across the country. But, despite this, a new stereotype has taken hold: that a significant proportion of Asian men are groomers (and the rest of their communities know of it and keep silent)

That would be a statistically higher number (of Asian gangs involved in related potential offences) than their demographic representation would indicate.

I would be very surprised to find out, in view of the history of Asian immigration into Eritrea and the phenotype of the individuals pictured, that the two Eritrean members of the gang did not have some Asian ancestry. At which point does describing someone according to their perceived phenotype become offensive in relation to crimes? If the police asked a victim of an assault to describe their attacker, and the victim described the attacker as a "white man" when he was actually North African or had an African parent, would that be offensive? Would the victim be prevented by niceities over and above those enshrined in law from describing her attacker thus?

How do you think the children who were victims of the attacks by the Rochdale gang would have described their attackers?

olgaga · 16/05/2013 11:27

meanie is there a ratio where its ok to group people that i was't aware of ?

Evidently.

Chazs I am engaging in the original debate about media coverage.

nailak Yes I have read that article. I read the Guardian, so I also read the Harker piece which as you are no doubt aware attracted a lot of critical comments. Yes, even in the Guardian. The latest article you have reproduced makes it clear that the perpetrators were white, and that it was reported in the national media as I'm sure all similar cases would be. How it is then received is a reflection of our society, I agree.

By the way you can post a link rather than reproducing the whole article, there is guidance below.

squeakytoy · 16/05/2013 11:30

Whatever the case, we know that abuse of white girls is not a cultural or religious issue because there is no longstanding history of it taking place in Asia or the Muslim world

Considering there are not an abundance of white young girls out unaccompanied in the rest of the muslim dominated parts of the world eh?

How many white females have been on holiday to Egypt, or Turkey and found themselves harassed with unwanted attention from the local men, as they walk along minding their own business.

ophelia275 · 16/05/2013 11:32

Surely if Jimmy Saville or any of the older white celebrity paedophiles (god that sounds awful) were specifically targetting young Asian girls then I have no doubt their ethnicity would be mentioned ("White celebrity paedophiles groomed Asian girls".

KansasCityOctopus · 16/05/2013 11:35

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

melika · 16/05/2013 11:42

My Sil and her friend went to Tunisia by themselves, I thought then, how foolish.

The two of them were hounded for the whole week by men, Tunisia is a Muslim country by the way. They hated it.

My poor Sil, in her early twenties, refused the attention of one man on the beach, having her bikini on walked off into the sea, to get rid of him.

The next thing is, he runs after her, shouting, fully clothed, catches up with her and smacks her across the face.

Just another generalisation. I guess.

LessMissAbs · 16/05/2013 11:47

I don't know what you are arguing for OP. Are you trying to make an argument that offenders and suspects cannot be identified according to their phenotype and genotype by victims and news agencies reporting on those crimes?

Or are you arguing that only those of proven and recent Asian descent into the UK can be described as Asian, but those from other parts of the world may not?

Or are you arguing that there is something inherently inferior about being described as Asian in the UK that great care should be taken when applying such a description to someone who may not be Asian?

Or alternatively, are you arguing that there is something additional in the Race Relations Act 1976 and subsequent racial discrimination legislation that no-one else has spotted, including the courts, and that describing a predominately Asian gang in a newspaper heading as "Asian" and then going on to explain the composition of that gang, should somehow be considered wrong, even though that is outwith the terms of the law?

Statistics are not racist. If there is a predominance of persons from a particular background committing a particular type of crime in relation to their representation in society, be that a racial background or otherwise, it is not unreasonable for the investigatory agencies to take that into account and for the news agencies to report accurately on this. A lot of crime-solving is based on spotting trends and patterns and on abstract reasoning. To exclude one section of society from this on the basis of their race, or to suggest that their race cannot be described, would be unethical and incorrect.

LessMissAbs · 16/05/2013 11:49

And Kansas, I went to Turkey recently, as a blond female of not fully British extraction, and was harassed less by men than in bloody Scotland.

Jinsei · 16/05/2013 12:07

I would call a gang of 7 individuals, 5 of whom were white, and 2 of whom were Asian, perpetrating rape on young woman, a "white gang". Or a "gang of white men".

Really? Would you really call them a gang of white men? I don't believe this for a moment. I don't think you would make any generalisations about their ethnicity at all.

babyboomersrock · 16/05/2013 12:15

"Babyboomersrock, are you trying to discredit my account of my experience growing up in this way. I was a good catholic girl, trying to mind my own business. I was always envious of my friends who lived in a safer area where they could go out unhindered by these men.

My Dad was a very strict Northern Irish catholic (he died when I was 15) and so I do know the terrible prejudice in the 70's he faced, eg, he was a bus driver and used to get abuse and even spat upon. By the way, I didn't come across any abuse from my church community.

Are you one of those people who have never encountered real life in the inner city?"

Melika - my husband worked in Bradford for many years - we've just moved back to Scotland, and I grew up in Glasgow. I do know a bit about it.

I'm the last person to say it's ok for women to be abused or harrassed and I'm sad that you experienced that - however, it's one thing to say you had bad experiences; quite another to deduce from that that all Muslim/Pakistani/Asian men are the same, or have similar atitudes to women.

We know many men of Pakistani origin - none of them is the sort of person you encountered.

I know a fair bit about prejudice and injustice and I detest it - which is why I despair when people make blanket statements about people from one ethnic group.

babyboomersrock · 16/05/2013 12:25

Oops, can't spell. I meant harassed...

AngsanaTree · 16/05/2013 12:36

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

babyboomersrock · 16/05/2013 12:36

"And it's pretty absurd to be using JS as an example to prove... well what I don't know.

Everyone knew who Jimmy Savile was. An arrogant, creepy, ugly white chancer from Leeds who had a tendency to display his disturbingly ropey old legs in very short shorts on fun runs. His religion? Who gives a shit"

Everyone knew...what? You make him sound like some benign old eccentric. Being ugly and arrogant - even creepy - doesn't make a man a paedophile, which JS was. I think you're in danger of stereotyping again.

And his religion is as relevant as that of the Oxford criminals. JS was a practising Catholic, and all the time he was abusing children. Are you saying religion is only newsorthy in criminal cases if it's Islam?

babyboomersrock · 16/05/2013 12:37

Spelling fail again...newsworthy...I'll go and have a lie down.

SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius · 16/05/2013 12:47

For me, the bottom line is this.

If there are pockets of asian/pakistani/muslim men with the attitude that all white girls are easy, trash and therefore it is OK to abuse them (whether verbally or physically), then surely this is a problem that needs to be dealt with.

The existence of other, equally nasty attitudes, actions and abuse in other communities or individuals does not negate the need to deal with this particular abhorrent attitude.

ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 16/05/2013 13:10

If there are pockets of asian/pakistani/muslim men with the attitude that all white girls are easy, trash and therefore it is OK to abuse them (whether verbally or physically), then surely this is a problem that needs to be dealt with.

I have no argument with this and I don't think my N African muslim DH would either. Racist and misogynistic groups within any population need to be dealt with.

My only issue is where people appear to be assuming that those pockets of people are representative of the whole.

olgaga · 16/05/2013 13:12

Are you saying religion is only newsorthy in criminal cases if it's Islam?

No, I'm not - you're just eagerly putting words into my mouth. I was saying everyone knew who JS was, so it would be superfluous to describe him as a white British man because everyone knew that. I didn't actually know he was a Catholic but so what? It's not relevant.

That's why the media did not label these men "Muslims". They said they were Asian. According to the OP, that's apparently not acceptable either.

If the media had said they were "predominantly Asian" presumably that would have been fine as it would be technically correct?

Either way, once their pictures were published everyone would have known they were predominantly Asian, and that as they are of Pakistani and North African origin, they were likely to be Muslims.

I can understand that most Asians and Muslims might be horrified by this whole situation - but trying to avoid any mention of their ethnic origin isn't going to alter the facts in this case.

I don't think anyone would assume that most Muslims do this, or that most Asian men do this, any more than they might assume that most celebrities were paedophiles or that most men are rapists.

ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 16/05/2013 13:14

Olgaga
People on this thread have assumed that many or most muslims think that white women are trash. I have directed you to the posts.