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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to think that men should not be referred to as 'Asian' when they are not in fact Asian

230 replies

PatPig · 15/05/2013 10:26

Examples (disturbing content warning):

www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/may/14/oxford-child-sex-ring-police-investigation
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2324621/Girl-12-branded-hairpin-raped-sold-sex-600-hour.html

According to this:

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-22164676

The leaders of the gang are:

'thought to originate from Eritrea, in East Africa, but he grew up in his parents' house on the Cowley Road.'

Since when was Eritrea in Asia?

The Telegraph goes with:

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/10057543/Asian-grooming-gang-convicted-of-appalling-acts-of-depravity-on-children.html

"Asian grooming gang convicted of appalling acts of depravity on children"

yet in the article concedes:

"Seven men of Asian or North African origin were found guilty of grooming"

It seems like inaccurate and prejudicial language to me, especially when Asia contains 2/3 of the population of the world yet 'Asians' are obviously an ethnic minority in the UK.

OP posts:
Lazyjaney · 15/05/2013 17:41

Have there been any similar European or African gangs like this?

Also, wasn't there some criticism of the police in the Rochdale case that they were too sensitive about race and that delayed matters?

Springdiva · 15/05/2013 17:48

Good point Chasz - there have been cases of white men doing this but I see it was over a shorter length of time and the N Wales one was a care home and involved staff, so not the same.

Comparing numers of population there is still a larger than expected proportion of the Asian community carrying out this crime. Not saying no 'whites' do this just that the ethnicity is an issue not to be ignored, as I stated previously.

gordyslovesheep · 15/05/2013 17:50

STD it may be in this situation they where the least risky - as I have said - I have come across sexually exploited males and females from a wide range of ethnic back grounds - being abused by gangs from different back grounds

Gangs from Eastern Europe began trafficking women years back - they made money ...gangs who traditionally trafficked and dealt drugs realised this - at a time when drug flow was effected by issues in other countries - they realised the risk in importing women was high - but that they could groom vulnerable young women right here

the issue is money - and if there is money to be made you can bet your arse it's not just 'asian gangs' involved.

WorkingMummyof1 · 15/05/2013 17:54

Things - as other posters have said these gangs target white women in care - not all white women. i have no idea of the stats - how many of the women/girls in the care home(s) in question are from other ethnic groups - maybe it was that most of the girls were white and if they targeted care homes then most of their victims would be?

anyway the main point is that yes problem is atrocious - it does not matter what "culture" the gangs follow - it is a crime against humanity not just "whites". they must be stopped!!!

Holly - perhaps this is to do with location of crime? most crimes happen in inner cities - this is where immigrants tend to reside in bulk - before the immigrants "came along" - was this 1 in 5 still there, but being carried out by non-immigrants living in cities?

thebody - yes - why had social services ignored this problem? it is something seen again and again.

but... this post was created to discuss semantics - if a discussion is wanted on how terrible the crime is that is not the point of this thread. the point is that asian gangs are labelled as asians, however, e.g. as in the example I gave showed Russian gangs were labelled as a gang. this is the point of the thread. if you do not like the thread discussion you do not have to read it?

i am sure anyone with half a brain will realise that the op is not meaning to diminish the heinous crimes in any way - she is discussing a related aspect of it - namely media representation of certain groups of people. this terrible case is an example here.

however all our anger should be focussed on what we can do about it? petition local government to take care of children in homes.

i know not much about religion but do know this - one may be classed as a member of the religion but if they disobey the basics - i.e. do not interfere with other people's human rights - they are not a true member of that religion. i can tick a form to say that i am a baker - if i know nothing about flour or sugar how can i be one? lets not say muslim criminal - just criminal. many muslims are not criminals and suffer at the hands of criminals who claim to be muslims. we are all in it togther.

SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius · 15/05/2013 18:00

WorkingMummy - not all the girls were in care. They interviewed the mother of one of the girls last night - she tried desperately to help her daughter, she approached every agency she could think of, and still got no help at all. Her dd would come home, dirty, in pain, in tears, and curl up on her lap, sucking her thumb - and then when, possibly only hours later, a message came from the men to her mobile, she would, as her mother described, go blank in the eyes, and walk out to a waiting car.

And I have to go back to the Newsnight item, where a muslim representative stated that there are men within his community who believe that white girls are easy, sluts, trash, deserving of no respect.

This attitude is despicable, and is based on race, therefore racist. And if there are other communities where there is a belief that girls from X, Y or Z religious/racial/ethnic group are sluts who can be used like pieces of meat, then that is equally despicable, and I would have no difficulty in saying that that community ought to deal with it.

WorkingMummyof1 · 15/05/2013 18:01

PS of course if a crime is racially motivated it should be handled the same as all racial/hate crimes - no matter who did it.

ThingsThatMakeYouGoHmmmmmmmmm · 15/05/2013 18:02

Workingmummy..

Hmm, see wht you mean, but

"maybe it was that most of the girls were white and if they targeted care homes then most of their victims would be? "

All their victims were whiteHmm

OrionArcturus · 15/05/2013 18:06

ThingsThatMakeYouGoHmmmmmmmmm - Totally agree (claps hands).
It's sad and shameful that the police decided to persecute the victims of these horrendous crimes rather than go after the persecutors for fear of being labelled racist. I hope these victims are able to get some sort of compensation or apology from the police for not doing their jobs and making the situation so much worse for these poor girls.

LadyClariceCannockMonty · 15/05/2013 18:10

YANBU. I agree with this:

'When you are white and you commit a crime, you are a criminal.
When you are black and you commit a crime, you are a black criminal.'

WorkingMummyof1 · 15/05/2013 18:11

SDTG - yes agree of course

however again (getting tired of saying the same thing Confused) yes there are muslim men who are racist and mysogynistic - but so are other men from other "communities" - do you think if Saville respected the white girls he attacked he would have done it? did the white Russian gang respect the white Eastern European women they abused? this whole thread was (i think as the op seems to have disappeared!) to discuss that when a crime is commited by "asians/muslims" it is highlighted more by the media the way that some people have been talking they seem to cast this evil onto "most asians/muslims". in this case the majority of the gang were of a certain ethnic group, but there are others out there - so it is an insult to say "muslim criminal" mainly bcos true muslims would never accept that those criminals were muslims. but yes in this case there are many cases of "muslim" gangs comitting crimes, no harm in saying this, but must then mention others in the same way when those cases come up.

gordyslovesheep · 15/05/2013 18:13

but STD there are plenty of men in EVERY community who thing young girls are sluts, stash and worthless - that is a fact

the issue is these girls are often the ones that no one can reach or who are difficult to engage - or as described to me once by a lead professional within the sexually exploited children s team as 'really not the kind of kids you like' (don't go mad she was making a point) Often these young people abscond from home, play truant, get involved in petty crime, are abusive and obnoxious to those in authority and to parents - they know everything - they wont be told

then a 'nice' older guy with a flashy car starts buying them phones and bling and taking them out ...then they find themselves in some fantasy and their 'boy friend' is going to be beaten up over a debt - but if they just have sex with this guy just once he will be okay ...and it spirals - and then they don't feel they can be vulnerable to the people who can help - an they are lost

My point is absolutely NOT that they in anyway are responsible - it is that they are easily targeted because they find themselves outside of cosy society - by choice, behaviour etc - until it is too late

these are the kids we want to have ASBO's, the ones drinking in the park and robbing from Primark - the ones society dislikes - and they are so vulnerable even if they don't believe it themselves.

I have witnessed stand up screaming rows in meetings from 14 year old girls who love their 26 year old boyfriend and resent you trying to break them up...because they can't see the wider picture

WorkingMummyof1 · 15/05/2013 18:15

LadyClarice - yes - this is the point of the thread.

Things - true...they were... my PS went towards that thought (x-post!)

WorkingMummyof1 · 15/05/2013 18:18

gordy - yes - this is the real reason for the crime - there will always be criminals out there - our job as a society is to prevent them by looking after each other - to look after the vulnerable and to oust those who need ousting. so many criminals have long track records and continue with these due to multiple "second chances" and "human rights". what about the human rights of the victims?

nailak · 15/05/2013 18:20

www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/jul/22/how-racism-takes-root

By now surely everyone knows the case of the eight men convicted of picking vulnerable underage girls off the streets, then plying them with drink and drugs before having sex with them. A shocking story. But maybe you haven't heard. Because these sex assaults did not take place in Rochdale, where a similar story led the news for days in May, but in Derby earlier this month. Fifteen girls aged 13 to 15, many of them in care, were preyed on by the men. And though they were not working as a gang, their methods were similar ? often targeting children in care and luring them with, among other things, cuddly toys. But this time, of the eight predators, seven were white, not Asian. And the story made barely a ripple in the national media.

Of the daily papers, only the Guardian and the Times reported it. There was no commentary anywhere on how these crimes shine a light on British culture, or how middle-aged white men have to confront the deep flaws in their religious and ethnic identity. Yet that's exactly what played out following the conviction in May of the "Asian sex gang" in Rochdale, which made the front page of every national newspaper. Though analysis of the case focused on how big a factor was race, religion and culture, the unreported story is of how politicians and the media have created a new racial scapegoat. In fact, if anyone wants to study how racism begins, and creeps into the consciousness of an entire nation, they need look no further.

Imagine you were living in a town of 20,000 people ? the size of, say, Penzance in Cornwall ? and one day it was discovered that one of its residents had been involved in a sex crime. Would it be reasonable to say that the whole town had a cultural problem, that it needed to address the scourge ? that anyone not doing so was part of a "conspiracy of silence"? But the intense interest in the Rochdale story arose from a January 2011 Times "scoop" that was based on the conviction of at most 50 British Pakistanis out of a total UK population of 1.2 million, just one in 24,000: one person per Penzance.

Make no mistake, the Rochdale crimes were vile, and those convicted deserve every year of their sentences. But where, amid all the commentary, was the evidence that this is a racial issue; that there's something inherently perverted about Muslim or Asian culture?

Even the Child Protection and Online Protection Centre (Ceop), which has also studied potential offenders who have not been convicted, has only identified 41 Asian gangs (of 230 in total) and 240 Asian individuals ? and they are spread across the country. But, despite this, a new stereotype has taken hold: that a significant proportion of Asian men are groomers (and the rest of their communities know of it and keep silent).

But if it really is an "Asian" thing, how come Indians don't do it? If it's a "Pakistani" thing, how come an Afghan was convicted in the Rochdale case? And if it's a "Muslim" thing, how come it doesn't seem to involve anyone of African or Middle Eastern origin? The standard response to anyone who questions this is: face the facts, all those convicted in Rochdale were Muslim. Well, if one case is enough to make such a generalisation, how about if all the members of a gang of armed robbers were white; or cybercriminals; or child traffickers? (All three of these have happened.) Would we be so keen to "face the facts" and make it a problem the whole white community has to deal with? Would we have articles examining what it is about Britishness or Christianity or Europeanness, that makes people so capable of such things?

In fact, Penzance had not just one paedophile, but a gang of four. They abused 28 girls, some as young as five, and were finally convicted two years ago. All were white. And last month, at a home affairs select committee, deputy children's commissioner Sue Berelowitz quoted a police officer who had told her that "there isn't a town, village or hamlet in which children are not being sexually exploited".

Whatever the case, we know that abuse of white girls is not a cultural or religious issue because there is no longstanding history of it taking place in Asia or the Muslim world.

How did middle-aged Asian men from tight-knit communities even come into contact with white teenage girls in Rochdale? The main cultural relevance in this story is that vulnerable, often disturbed, young girls, regularly out late at night, often end up in late-closing restaurants and minicab offices, staffed almost exclusively by men. After a while, relationships build up, with the men offering free lifts and/or food. For those with a predatory instinct, sexual exploitation is an easy next step. This is an issue of what men can do when away from their own families and in a position of power over badly damaged young people.

It's a story repeated across Britain, by white and other ethnic groups: where the opportunity arises, some men will take advantage. The precise method, and whether it's an individual or group crime, depends on the particular setting ? be they priests, youth workers or networks on the web.

Despite all we know about racism, genocide and ethnic cleansing, the Rochdale case showed how shockingly easy it is to demonise a community. Before long, the wider public will believe the problem is endemic within that race/religion, and that anyone within that group who rebuts the claims is denying this basic truth. Normally, one would expect a counter-argument to force its way into the discussion. But in this case the crimes were so horrific that right-thinking people were naturally wary of being seen to condone them. In fact, the reason I am writing this is that I am neither Asian nor Muslim nor Pakistani, so I cannot be accused of being in denial or trying to hide a painful truth. But I am black, and I know how racism works; and, more than that, I have a background in maths and science, so I know you can't extrapolate a tiny, flawed set of data and use it to make a sweeping generalisation.

I am also certain that, if the tables were turned and the victims were Asian or Muslim, we would have been subjected to equally skewed "expert" commentary asking: what is wrong with how Muslims raise girls? Why are so many of them on the streets at night? Shouldn't the community face up to its shocking moral breakdown?

While our media continue to exclude minority voices in general, such lazy racial generalisations are likely to continue. Even the story of a single Asian man acting alone in a sex case made the headlines. As in Derby this month, countless similar cases involving white men go unreported.

We have been here before, of course: in the 1950s, West Indian men were labelled pimps, luring innocent young white girls into prostitution. By the 1970s and 80s they were vilified as muggers and looters. And two years ago, Channel 4 ran stories, again based on a tiny set of data, claiming there was an endemic culture of gang rape in black communities. The victims weren't white, though, so media interest soon faded. It seems that these stories need to strike terror in the heart of white people for them to really take off.

What is also at play here is the inability of people, when learning about a different culture or race, to distinguish between the aberrations of a tiny minority within that group, and the normal behaviour of a significant section. Some examples are small in number but can be the tip of a much wider problem: eg, knife crime, which is literally the sharp end of a host of problems affecting black communities ranging from family breakdown, to poverty, to low school achievement and social exclusion.

But in Asia, Pakistan or Islam there is no culture of grooming or sex abuse ? any more than there is anywhere else in the world ? so the tiny number of cases have no cultural significance. Which means those who believe it, or perpetuate it, are succumbing to racism, much as they may protest. Exactly the same mistake was made after 9/11, when the actions of a tiny number of fanatics were used to cast aspersions against a 1.5 billion-strong community worldwide. Motives were questioned: are you with us or the terrorists? How fundamental are your beliefs? Can we trust you?

Imagine if, after Anders Breivik's carnage in Norway last year, which he claimed to be in defence of the Christian world, British people were repeatedly asked whether they supported him? Lumped together in the same white religious group as the killer and constantly told they must renounce him, or explain why we should believe that their type of Christianity ? even if they were non-believers ? is different from his. "It's nothing to do with me", most people would say. But somehow that answer was never good enough when given by Muslims over al-Qaida. And this hectoring was self-defeating because it caused only greater alienaton and resentment towards the west and, in particular, its foreign policies.

Ultimately, the urge to vilify groups of whom we know little may be very human, and helps us bond with those we feel are "like us". But if we are going to deal with the world as it is, and not as a cosy fantasyland where our group is racially and culturally supreme, we have to recognise when sweeping statements are false.

And if we truly care about the sexual exploitation of girls, we need to know that we must look at all communities, across the whole country, and not just at those that play to a smug sense of superiority about ourselves.

bigkidsdidit · 15/05/2013 18:27

I don;t think it's as easy as 'this exists in every community'; Asian muslim men are over-represented in this sort of crime

guardian article

nailak · 15/05/2013 18:28

www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/may/06/sexual-abuse-in-white-community

Every day across Britain, it seems, there's a new and horrific revelation of sexual abuse: last week we had the guilty plea of veteran TV presenter Stuart Hall, who confessed to 14 cases of indecent assault against 13 girls, the youngest only nine years old.

Days earlier the possible scale of child abuse in north Wales children's homes was revealed. We now know there were 140 allegations of historical abuse between 1963 and 1992. A total of 84 suspected offenders have been named, and it's claimed the abuse took place across 18 children's homes.

But after the shock has subsided and we have time to reflect on these revolting crimes, the main question in most reasonable people's minds must surely be: what is it about white people that makes them do this?

Jimmy Savile is alleged to have abused 300 young people, and in his case and in north Wales, the abuse could not have happened without a wide range of co-conspirators either grooming children or ensuring the truth never got out. Hardly a week goes by without another white man being arrested in connection with sexual abuse.

I'm beginning to feel sorry for whites. I have many white friends and I know most of them are wholly opposed to sexual abuse. But they must be worried that their whole community is getting a bad name. I can imagine that, every day, with each unfolding case, they must be hiding their face behind their hands, pleading: "Please, God, don't let it be a white person this time."

And with so many senior community figures implicated, many of us are starting to wonder what will happen to the next generation of whites. How will today's young whites learn that abuse is wrong when their role models are so tarnished?

First, though, we need to find out what's causing the problem. Is it something to do with white people's culture? Is it something to do with their loss of empire, and their new role in the world, as a diminished state desperately clinging to its glorious past? Do they seek to impose their last vestiges of power on the most vulnerable in society?

Or is it that, having spent so much of their history waging wars against each other, they cannot cope with the relative peace of the last half-century, and their frustration at not fighting is taken out on the weakest? I may have no evidence for this, but that's not going to stop me putting it out there as a cause.

Or maybe it's their religion? Child abuse in the priesthood has, of course, also been tolerated for decades, allowed to continue unpunished through a conspiracy of silence among the church hierarchy.

And despite the recent falls in attendance, Christianity still dominates European culture. And the Bible, which many whites still look to, has such verses as: "Do not withhold discipline from a child; if you strike him with a rod, he will not die. If you strike him with the rod, you will save his soul from Sheol [hell]." (Proverbs 23:13-14) It hardly fits with white society's claims to care for children. And even those who don't believe, such as Richard Dawkins, a senior cleric in the atheist community, have sought to downplay the gravity of child abuse, believing it's no worse than religion itself. As he wrote: "Horrible as sexual abuse no doubt was, the damage was arguably less than the long-term psychological damage inflicted by bringing the child up Catholic in the first place." Of course, what we really need now is for brave white community leaders to come out and distance themselves from the abusers.

Maybe, say, the new head of the Equality and Human Rights Commission should come out and admit the issue is "racial and cultural" and that she fears that "in those communities there were people who knew what was going on and didn't say anything, either because they're frightened or they're so separated from the rest of the communities". Or a white cabinet member could say: "There is a small minority of white men who believe that young children are fair game. And we have to be prepared to say that. You can only start solving a problem if you acknowledge it first." Or the head of a leading children's charity could say: "There is very troubling evidence that whites are overwhelmingly represented in the prosecutions for such offences." Yet none of this has happened. And this saddens me. Because until we hear those brave voices speaking out against abuse, what are we meant to think?

I urge white people to break this conspiracy of silence. Call on your leaders to show leadership. To show us all that you're not like the people who dominate the news headlines. That you really do care about protecting children.

You may think all the above is ridiculous; that I'm stirring ethnic tensions on an issue that is clearly about individuals and small groups of people and has nothing to do with race or religion. And that by making this spurious case I'm ignoring the core issue, which is that children, many of them in vulnerable situations, were terrorised and physically harmed by opportunistic men who were able to get away with their crimes for years. You'd be right.

But all of the above arguments were made within various parts of our print and broadcast media when similarly small numbers of Muslim men were revealed to be grooming young girls for sex. If you think the claims about white people are wrong, then so is the stereotyping of Britain's Muslims, and the widespread questioning of their culture and their religion, because of the perverted actions of a few.

Since the "black crime shock" tabloid stories of the 1980s, editors have known that stoking fears about misunderstood minorities is good for sales. If you object to this article, then you should understand how it feels to be a Muslim reading similar pieces pandering to Islamophobia day after day ? and you should object to those too.

Springdiva · 15/05/2013 18:35

My point is that the risk of a racism accusation stops SWs and Police doing their job.

Also the tightness of Asian communities stops reporting of suspect behaviour. Men were interviewed from the area where the gang were from who had gone to school with the perpetrators, so these people were known, not odd balls or 'scum' on the edge of society. But nothing within the community was seen amiss, or amiss enough to report to police.

Am not saying all asians are bad or whatever.

SanityClause · 15/05/2013 18:39

I think your points are very valid, nailak. The issue is not geography. It is the demonisation of ethnic minorities in this country.

There was no need to use the word "Asian" at all (or North African, either).

Adults preyed on vulnerable girls in our country. Yours and mine. This is the issue we should be concerned with, not the ethnicity of the perpetrators.

WorkingMummyof1 · 15/05/2013 18:41

nailak - BRAVO!!! why not publish your writing? - please do! you seem to have more facts and balance than most here.

WorkingMummyof1 · 15/05/2013 18:42

nailak - teehee! just realised is a published article - good on the Guardian!

WorkingMummyof1 · 15/05/2013 18:43

Sanity - yes!

ThingsThatMakeYouGoHmmmmmmmmm · 15/05/2013 18:56

"Whatever the case, we know that abuse of white girls is not a cultural or religious issue because there is no longstanding history of it taking place in Asia or the Muslim world."

With the greatest of respect, that is possibly the most disingenous pile of poo I have ever read. Would you like to state where you think, in the whole of Asia, or the Muslim world , the circumstances existed,historically,for such abuse,of white girls, to take place?

Typical lazy Guardian intellectual sleight of hand.

janetbb · 15/05/2013 18:58

There are certainly cultural and religious issues worthy of discussion, if not to be accepted.

There is a more specific debate to be had about Islam, paedophilia and rape than, say, Jim?ll Fixit.

For example, concerning rape of captive women, the Quran notes:

  1. Rape is permitted for ?those whom your right hands possess.?

  2. "The apostle of Allah sent a military expedition to Awtas on the occasion of the battle of Hunain. They met their enemy and fought with them. They defeated them and took them captives. Some of the Companions of the apostle of Allah were reluctant to have intercourse with the female captives in the presence of their husbands who were unbelievers. So Allah, the Exalted, sent down the Quranic verse, "And all married women (are forbidden) unto you save those (captives) whom your right hands possess". That is to say, they are lawful for them when they complete their waiting period." [The Quran verse is 4:24]

  3. Muhammad conquered the village of Khaibar, killed the Rabbi and raping his wife.

Concerning paedophilia, Muhammad had sex with his ?wife? Aisha when she was nine; ?Aisha (may Allah be pleased with her) narrated that the Prophet (may the blessing and peace of Allah be upon him) married her when she was six years old, and he consummated her in marriage when she was nine years old. Then she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death).?

Of course, all of the above have been contested in their interpretation, and also can be understood as not so unusual in their historical context.

But whereas, say, a Christian can roundly reject the vast majority of Deuteronomy, a Muslim has less wriggle room.

So the paedophilic rape of vulnerable girls by Muslim men is certainly worthy of further consideration, even if proven erroneous.

Horrendous as it may sound, accessing and assessing the culprits might help prevent recurrences, or else allow us to dismiss any such link with Islam.

But silencing the questions helps no one.

gordyslovesheep · 15/05/2013 18:58

yes the ARE over represented because these are CRIMINAL GANGS evolved from those who where bringing drugs into the UK via Pakistan etc - they have evolved into selling people

but it's not BECAUSE of any religious views, or views of 'white women' (myth of the black rapist anyone?) - it is because it was predominately these gangs involved in drug trafficking who have seen the market in underaged kids :(

ThingsThatMakeYouGoHmmmmmmmmm · 15/05/2013 19:04

" because it was predominately these gangs involved in drug trafficking who have seen the market in underaged kids"

Not true. Please provide your source for this statement.