To think that there is no good in these kids future

[PatPig]

Story here:
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-22462545
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2322073/Smirk-teenage-thug-moments-killing-OAP-handbag-Pair-15-year-olds-including-father-jailed.html

Age 14 and 15 they killed an old lady to buy Nike shoes, they will serve 3 years in a young offenders institute, one boy has already fathered two children, both have convictions for assaulting their parents, there's violent burglary, kidnap and assault.

AIBU to think they will be let out in 3 years having spent several years in the company of similarly unpleasant teenagers to spend the foreseeable future committing more crime and causing more misery?

ohbuggerhelp, how exactly? The benefits cap is £26k/year. It affects very few people.

MrsTP I know no-one has outright said its an excuse apart form one poster who has blatently said maybe they dont know right from wrong, but quite a few have referred to their upbringing being to blame. The simple fact is however shite your early life, you know its not 'OK' to mug and cause the death of someone.

I dont agree with capital punishment. But I do think that if you do something as horrendous as this, you have already shown that you do not wish to be part of a civilised society. The only time I could see myself even nodding slightly in agreement with rehabilitation and therapy and hugging kittens etc would be if the length of rehabilitation mirrored the age of the scum that committed the crime - my reasoning being along similar lines I guess to those who state that their upbringing is to blame - so if after 14 years of life they still thought it was ok to mug and kill someone, its not too much of a stretch to assume it would take 14 years to undo that.

Anyway, it is pretty obvious that I am biased in this, having lost my gran in similar circumstances. In a way Im glad I didnt have to witness the bastards only getting 3 years as they were never caught.

Once you stop behaving like a human being, you lose your human rights, surely? ergo, lock them up hard and long or hang 'em.

'The simple fact is however shite your early life, you know its not 'OK' to mug and cause the death of someone'

but they don't care and that's the problem. A problem that cannot be solved by just locking them away. Unless they are locked away for ever, which would be very expensive and impractical (no space).

*Would you all think the same if that was your mother that died?
If it was the house next to you that they moved into?
If your daughter brought one of these young men home in 5 years time?

I bet you'd view things differently*
Appeals to emotion are not really a compelling or valid argument. It's a fallacy when emotiion is used instead of a logical argument or to obscure the fact that no compelling rational reason exists for one's position.
This applies to both of these too:
The excuse that children and young adults have had a tough life is not good enough.
What if the old lady they killed for a few pounds had a tough life too, what if she was bereaved and bought up in a violent home (I am not saying that she was but what if she was).
She would have had a crappy life and then be killed in a robbery.

The introduction of a benefits cap will help prevent some of these people being born in the first place, I suspect.

The introduction of a benefits cap will help prevent some of these people being born in the first place, I suspect.

They are unlikely to ever care so why waste money and time trying?

I know that's impractical, sadly. I don't know what the solution is either, except perhaps just ship them off to a desert island so they can all be evil bastards together and have nothing to do with people who actually do care about not killing someone. imo they don't deserve to have anyone care about them, they lost that right im afraid

I'm very sorry Toys about your gran. That is horrible. And, I'm sorry the perpetrators didn't get caught.

I have worked in substance rehab and it is by no means kitten hugging. It's hard, boring, headache inducing work for therapists and addicts. I also don't think rehabilitation works for everyone. However, the recidivism rates differ wildly. I might be in agreement with (humanely) locking up child sex offenders for ever. Because they are hard to treat and the damage is horrifying when they reoffend. Murderers, however, rarely reoffend.

My attitude is that I want to prevent crime. If locking people up for ever worked, you might argue that, but it doesn't. We can't afford to do it. So, it's rehabilitation or massive reoffending like we have now. If we want to prevent crime we need to target that. Talking about stringing people up and 'hard time' is satisfying but ultimately doesn't work to prevent crime.

ohbugger because rehabilitation does work. Read the link earlier about the Norwegian system.

' imo they don't deserve to have anyone care about them, they lost that right im afraid'

Don't think about what they deserve, think about what we as a society deserve. We deserve to be safe don't we? The best way to achieve that is to rehabilitate people who do wrong. You don't need to care about them, just the outcome. If the outcome is they don't hurt anyone else then that's good surely?

Urgh why did I click that DM link? the comments are totally racist as expected.

They're utter scum though.

By definition locking someone up forever would work, and probably be a cracking deterrent. But I know that's not a possibility.

And thank you for the first line of your post, its been nearly 16 years and not a day goes by that i don't think about my gran, and how long it actually took for what the fuckers did to finally take her. It's one of the reasons I'm not religious anymore. And prob one of the reasons I should bid this thread farewell

Of course locking them up forever works.

That and hanging are the only two solutions absolutely guaranteed to work!

Sorry Toys. Intellectual debate is all very well but real bereavement and loss are horrible and stay with you. Sorry if this thread has made you feel worse.

Of course locking them up forever works. Of course it doesn't. It moves the offending inside. You may think it's OK for a 19 year old kid who twocked cars to get raped and murdered inside by someone who has nothing to lose because he is locked up forever. That is the result of three strikes and life means life. The possibility of parole helps keep prisons (and their staff) marginally safer.

They should never be released, they are disgusting, remorseless little psychopaths and their brains are to damaged to ever recover from that. Their parents should be prosecuted for raising them that way, they've done a terrible job and they are responsible for how they've turned out.

Sadly though these vermin will be out murdering again in a few years while their parents will continue to breed more violent thugs to destroy innocent peoples lives, there is no justice.

Oh bugger, but the death sentence doesn't work does it. Just look at the states

Try reading the article, thezebra

Aside from all the "Oh they had a bad start" the fact remains:

They are both 15 (so 'old' enough to know better. Even at the age they commited their numerous crimes}

They actively sought out someone elderly, blind, vunerable to rob.
Not to buy food.
Not to pay for essentials.
To buy training shoes. That woman's life was taken for TRAINING SHOES.

And one of them (at 15) has 2 children.
So that's two children now with a dad in prison.

Where to start. Where to step in and take preventative action?

A good place to start in preventative action would be to sterilise them.

I agree that preventative action needs to be taken, I don't think that hanging or life imprisonment work, certainly not as deterrents. It is intereting to note that one was already in foster care. I wonder why.
The point I was trying to make was that there are models that work and it would in fact be cheaper to use the Norwegian rehabilitation model than the model we currently use, which is expensive and ineffective and expensive and ineffective, ad infinitum.

Will they "live in luxury" or will they live in normal accommodation for teenagers (still children remember) where there will be input to try and help them address their offending behaviour?

By the way, I don't think they got nearly long enough but dont believe we should be writing them off just yet. Generally, kids from devent and normal backgrounds do not do this kind of thing. Children who have grown up in a climate of neglect and abuse can be more likely to do this. As a society we pay the price for our failure to address this neglect early enough.

The article doesnt say the background of the two boys, so I suppose we are assuming they have not had a nice upbringing, but we could be wrong couldnt we?

We could be wrong about their background but I would lay money on it being abusive.

Btw, tis does NOT excuse teir actions in the least, it is about saying as a society that we need to look out for children in neglectful homes, get support in early and address violence. I would bet my income that these two grew up in homes where violence was the norm. Address this kind of thing and the chances of these crimes occurring will reduce.

I think it was the USA where the legalisation of abortion had a significant impact on lowering crime statistics. Stoping these children being conceived in the first place would be most effective

I think it was the USA where the legalisation of abortion had a significant impact on lowering crime statistics. Stoping these children being conceived in the first place would be most effective

Are you Marie Stopes?