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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To think that there is no good in these kids future

173 replies

PatPig · 10/05/2013 13:31

Story here:
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-22462545
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2322073/Smirk-teenage-thug-moments-killing-OAP-handbag-Pair-15-year-olds-including-father-jailed.html

Age 14 and 15 they killed an old lady to buy Nike shoes, they will serve 3 years in a young offenders institute, one boy has already fathered two children, both have convictions for assaulting their parents, there's violent burglary, kidnap and assault.

AIBU to think they will be let out in 3 years having spent several years in the company of similarly unpleasant teenagers to spend the foreseeable future committing more crime and causing more misery?

OP posts:
Spero · 10/05/2013 15:47

I think a very, very small percentage of people are born 'evil' and their upbringings have little or no impact on how they behave as they grow.

But the vast majority of teenage 'scumbags' will have been subjected to violence, malnutrition, chronic neglect etc from before they were born.

This of course has an impact on behaviour, knowing or even caring about right from wrong. Anyone with a passing interest in the work of Kids Company for eg can see this.

Yes, they need to be off the streets for everyone's protection. I hope they get the chance of some rehab work whilst in prison because they will be out a some stage.

But frothing about 'hanging the scumbags' does nothing to deal with fact that thousands of these potential scumbags are being born every day and we need to rescue them before they are large, dangerous teens.

OutragedFromLeeds · 10/05/2013 15:47

TheToys I don't think anyone is suggesting they don't know it's wrong. They just don't care. Locking them up isn't going to make them care. That's the problem.

claraschu · 10/05/2013 15:48

Did everyone actually read the article about Norway?
I thought it was really interesting and thought provoking. Training prison guards for 3 years rather than 6 weeks seems like a very good place to start.

70isaLimitNotaTarget · 10/05/2013 15:50

I did wonder what makes a 15yo think they have the right to steal from another person (especially as the lady was so vunerable) and they had a history of robbery and assault.

But then I read that one attacked his foster dad and the other attacked his parents.

So what happens to 2 young men to let them think they can walk around showing fuck all respect to their family/carers ?

Six years? No-where NEAR enough.

70isaLimitNotaTarget · 10/05/2013 15:54

Locking them up isn't going to make them care

True.
But now surely the issue is keeping the rest of the population going about minding their own business safe.

Would you all think the same if that was your mother that died?
If it was the house next to you that they moved into?
If your daughter brought one of these young men home in 5 years time?

I bet you'd view things differently Confused

PoshPaula · 10/05/2013 15:54

I liked what the article included about the inmates being treated as people. That is what they are. They may have carried out evil, dangerous behaviour, and be damaged, ruthless and so on themselves, but they are people.

PoshPaula · 10/05/2013 15:56

70 - Of course the public need to be protected. No-one has suggested that this isn't so. The current methods are not particularly effective in the long term though, are they?

Would you think the same if one of these young men was your son or your brother?

OutragedFromLeeds · 10/05/2013 16:00

70 Of course people need to be kept safe, but that isn't going to happen unless they are either rehabilitated or kept in forever? Which do you think is best and cheaper for the tax payer?

I would feel differently if it was my mum, I'd want them strung up, but that's why we don't let bereaved relatives run the justice system.

FreckledLeopard · 10/05/2013 16:02

The article was very interesting. I watched that recent BBC series about Prisoners in Holloway and Pentonville and frankly, what chance do so many offenders have? It's heartbreaking. There are no obvious solutions and I can't see our country replicating the Norwegian model anytime soon.

MrsTerryPratchett · 10/05/2013 16:04

He have to decide what we want the justice system to DO. Do we want revenge, in which case just torture people. Do we want to keep people safe and offenders punished, in which case long custodial sentences. Do we want to rehabilitate offenders, in which case rehab, counselling, humanity and education with appropriate supportive housing afterwards.

No one seems to want to have this debate. Of course it is easy and satisfying and human to want people who do horrible things punished. People think that liberal bleeding hearts like me don't feel the same rage. Of course we do. I am beside myself when I hear about those women in the USA kept for years and raped. I am livid and tearful when I hear about the dead five year old rape victim in India dumped like garbage in the street. Part of me wants those offenders dead. However, years of working with offenders has taught me that they are human, even the child abusers and rapists and murderers. The crimes are foul and must be prevented. But how best to do that?

FasterStronger · 10/05/2013 16:04

Which do you think is best and cheaper for the tax payer?

early intervention, primary school age.

PoshPaula · 10/05/2013 16:05

I agree, Faster.

OutragedFromLeeds · 10/05/2013 16:05

'early intervention, primary school age.'

but given that this isn't an option for a 14 year old and 15 year old...?

andubelievedthat · 10/05/2013 16:08

thought I was reading the Daily Fail comment column ? J.Boyle for example ,Glasgow nut job ,would routinely nail people to the floor just to show him and others who was "boss" now? successful artiste,why? because as he said in his autobiography,"when I went into the "special unit"(specific prison) I was treated like a human being,like my feelings/opinions mattered,people listened to me and they showed me aspects of life I"d never knew about previously " The Govt. closed the special unit due to cost >go figure. It always comes down to pounds shillings and pence, the human cost is not really important ,because rarely ,if ever does an MP get nailed to a floor.

FasterStronger · 10/05/2013 16:10

outraged - its going to be more expensive.

if you start with 3-5 yo, more pressure on the parents etc. it will be cheaper. if they are older, it will be more expensive

but its not these boys fault they are on their own in this world. they weren't born heartless wankers - their lives -14+ years - have made them that.

BiteTheTopsOffIcedGems · 10/05/2013 16:14

The excuse that children and young adults have had a tough life is not good enough.
What if the old lady they killed for a few pounds had a tough life too, what if she was bereaved and bought up in a violent home (I am not saying that she was but what if she was).
She would have had a crappy life and then be killed in a robbery.

TheToysAreALIVEITellThee · 10/05/2013 16:14

70 - Hopefully they will never have to find out how different their opinion would be if it was their gran that these wastes of oxygen ultimately killed, as I sadly have.

Dahlen · 10/05/2013 16:16

Sadly, I think the OP is probably right in the sense that it is highly unlikely that these two boys will come out reformed characters and spend the rest of their lives doing only good. I've been around long enough to know it rarely happens. Sad

However, that's not to say impossible, nor should it mean that we stop giving people the chance. Prison should be about rehabilitation as well as justice being seen to be done, and we've all heard the adage about judging a society based on how it treats its prisoners.

It is fairly well documented that young offenders have notably high rates of learning difficulties, deprivation, bereavement or family breakdown, substance abuse issues, etc. We also know that prevention is better than cure. But because prevention does not yield financially calculable results (because you can't effectively measure the absence of crime), no one is prepared to pay for the vast injection of money needed in children's services, outreach and education that is needed despite the fact that it would save massive amounts of money long term.

MrsTerryPratchett · 10/05/2013 16:16

Yes, Bite and Toys you are right. It is not an excuse, no one said it was. And, one of the things that is rehabilitation and restorative justice IS victim empathy work. This tries to have them think about the victim and make them think about their grans as well.

ohbuggerhelp · 10/05/2013 16:19

The introduction of a benefits cap will help prevent some of these people being born in the first place, I suspect.

OutragedFromLeeds · 10/05/2013 16:21

I get that Faster, but my point is, it's too late for early intervention for many. We need to deal better with those people. It's cheaper to rehabilitate than it is to lock a 14 year old up for life. If he was 60 then it may be cheaper to lock him up than rehabilitate.

freddiefrog · 10/05/2013 16:22

how much help and training and support do the young people especially get in jails either there, or in the UK?

I'm not MrsTerry (obviously) but I am a foster carer for a young person currently going through Youth Offending at the moment, so coming from my experience, once our YP was actually convicted and in a YOI, support and education has been very good

While inside they had full time education, access to substance misuse therapy, counselling, training courses, etc. Our YP is now out on licence and is still getting the same level of support, but once the licence is up, YOT will withdraw and we'll revert to next to nothing

Our YP wasn't in a 'proper' prison, it was more about rehabilitation than just punishment.

However, whilst there is a lot of support and help there for our YP at the moment, it's next to impossible to get them to engage. While in the YOI they did very well, because they didn't really have any other choice, but now they're out they show up for a YOT appointment just long enough not to get breached. We can throw everything we can at them, and we encourage YP to make positive changes and good choices, but you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink as they saying goes

But, our YP is a product of their upbringing, we've only had them 7 months, 2 of which they were in a YOI, they had 16 years to get them to the position they were in when they came to us and you can't undo all that over night. All we can really do is keep throwing everything we've got at them, in the hope that one day they will decide to make these changes, and take these opportunities

OutragedFromLeeds · 10/05/2013 16:25

It's not an excuse bite,it's a fact. Completely ignoring why these kids did this is stupid and dangerous.

No amount of locking these boys up or making their life hard or toturing them is going to take back the victim's suffering or bring her back for her relatives. Preventing it happening in the first place would have.

ohbuggerhelp · 10/05/2013 16:26

Or we can spend those precious reserves on people who will be grateful and benefit and make custodial sentences longer, tougher and harsher?

Spero · 10/05/2013 16:26

You have got to distinguish having a 'tough' life with what some of these children go through.

They are mistreated to such an extent they simply can't develop empathy, compassion, understanding. One child at kids company said every day was like waking up in a war zone. Before he got out of his front door to go to school he had a knife and wanted to stab someone.

Yes, I want to be protected from him. Yes it may be too late for him.

But better surely to intervene earlier than go around hanging people?