to be ? that a teacher told my dd (6yrs) to wear cycling shorts under her summer dress if she was going to be doing cartwheels?

[mulranno]

?

I used to be an infant teacher, and in the summer with children sitting crossed legged on the carpet it was not unusual to get a sight of vulvas and vaginas that knickers couldn't cover in that position.

It was never a big issue for me, just one of those things, but I can understand why this and repeated, prolonged or mass exposures of underwear in the playground can start to make some people feel uncomfortable.

It's creating friction with the social norm and as I said people get twitchy and fuss about it.

soveryluck may I direct you to Euphemia's post ^
I'm not the only one, but the girls I have seen were in buggies.

Reading a out wee girls flashing their bits makes me more uncomfortable than a 6 year old doing a cartwheel and showing her pants accidentally tbh.

This thread is a bit icky.

Exactly fanjo.

You find girls inadvertently flashing their vulvas icky.

Some finds girls hanging from bars with skirts over thier heads icky.

Some find a flashes of knickers doing a cartwheel when school at school icky.

Of course in a sane world none of this is icky. It's just clothing and bodies.

But in our mad world we have complex but inconsistent rules that are movable depending on context and age which makes this all difficult to predict and nagivate.

Some schools andmpeople will go with caution and the big pants, shorts solution and some will think the social norm is broader than this and girls pants are fine to display in school.

It's just the ridiculous arguments about burkas being next, ignoring the already existing norms we have about underwear that cause this confusion, really get on my nerves. Silly simplistic grandstanding. Again.

Euphemia, what about teaching girls to sit down in such a way that they don't show up their knickers instead of having their legs wide apart as another poster said?
What about getting some dresses/skirts that have the right shape so that they can cover themselves up instead of the the quite tight/straight shape that means they have no other choice that showing their knickers?

I agree that society dictates what we should be doing/wearing/what can be on show.
but society doesn't dictates that knickers should never be seen at all, by anyone, incl 6yo girls. It does so for teenage girls and women. It does so for teenage boys and men for that matter (even though the trend atm is to show off your pants in teenage boys).
It does so because knickers/pants are associated with sexuality and we want to keep sexuality private.
I have missed the time when it says that young girls aren't allowed to 'flash' their knickers doing cartwheels. It has nothing remotely sexual. It isn't even similar to staying in pant only all day long. It isn't done on purpose. Why why creating such a big issue about it?
You have to remember that children that age are getting change together for PE. They do see each other in their underwear. There isn't anything remotely wrong about that. So why is it if a girl does cartwheels on the playground?
I agree though that it changes when girls start puberty. But I am pretty confident that no girl, once they have started their periods, will want others to see their pants!

no..I wouldn't find a wee girl doing it icky.

I find a thread full of posts talking about it a bit icky and distasteful IYSWIM

EL, that isn't what fanjo said. She said that she found reading about it icky, and this thread icky.

I think your posts are a bit creepy TBH. I would not be happy if a teacher was judging my child like that. It is quite normal in a KS1 class for children of both genders to not be that competent with sitting/toilet visits/changes for PE and teachers usually just accept that. They are small children.

sorry, I clearly just love the word "icky".

I wouldn't bat an eyelid at a wee child showing anything accidentally.

exactly Freya :)

But in our mad world we have complex but inconsistent rules that are movable depending on context and age which makes this all difficult to predict and nagivate.

And this is even made even more difficult by people being overzealous, creating new rules on what is acceptable or not. 10~20 years ago, it would have been OK to see a flashing image of a girl's knickers.
We need to wonder why some schools are taking that sort of approach. And it isn't that it is complex. It's because we have been going on so much about child protection that a small step aside from the line means the end of the world. So from 'women shouldn't be showing their pants' we have moved to 'girls aren't allowed to show their pants' because it might be a case where some people might take advantage of it.

I am truly wondering where that sort of attitude is going to take us.

Because we are the ones, by accepting or refusing these rules, who are making the society rules as a whole.
And I am not sure I want the society to teach girls that it's their responsibility to cover up for their own protection.

All this talk if putting shorts on under a dress to enable them to do handstand!! Just put bloody shorts on and forget about the dress. Or vice versa! The point if a dress or shorts is that they are cool in hot weather and allow mire freedom than trousers for running and jumping etc. doubling up defeats the purpose! Pants are perfectly sufficient fir covering a child under a dress if she doesn't want her pants being seen then dont put a dress on her. Put shorts on her.

Lady, I agree if one believes it's an issue the suggestions youve outlined would be possible solutions.

Personally it wasn't, and isn't, a big issue for me, nor are flashes of knickers doing cartwheels.

But I can see how for schools, and the complex and ambiguous rules about underwear that exist, creates situations where they introduce rules about shorts, or those you suggest.

I don't agree with it, it's just another example do the collective insanity, but I understand how given ambiguous norms, it comes about.

So I just found the predictable, girls are being made ashamed, subjugated again, and why not just make them wear burkas, type comments, to be missing the more nuanced debate which is related to our own mad inconsistent rules about bodies and underwear.

Oh Christ. Here we go.

Why are my posts creepy, and where did I judge a child??

Shorts under summer dresses. My 7 yr old daughter knows that's the rule!!!

If they are doing handstands at school who are we worried about seeing a quick flash of knickers? Teachers? Those 'horrible boys?'

Valium,

And therein lies the problem. Some 9 year old boy makes an overly sexualised comment about a flash of a 6 year old's underwear, the 6 year old complains to the teacher or her parents, social workers are brought in etc etc.

We live in a strange society in many ways and schools have to manage their way through it somehow. And, of course, parents have zero respect for schools or teachers (hence this kind of thread). The school is caught between a rock and a hard place; not ticking off the "child protection" box by making sure children are dressed "appropriately" or not tolerating something which has been done harmlessly for decades (cartwheels). As I said upthread, just let both young girls and boys have the same summer uniform of shorts and a t shirt, comfortable and uncontroversial. Unfortunately, it is the mothers (I very rarely see dads giving a damn about children's clothes) who love pictures of their daughters in cute dresses and agitate for it.

'parents have zero respect for schools or teachers (hence this kind of thread).'

Bit of a leap you've made there comparing 'disagreeing' with 'zero respect'.

I don't think social workers would be brought in for a boy making a comment about seeing a girl's knickers tbh.

Valium,

You are probably right on the detail but I am sure you can see why the school may be concerned. I am sure it is part of their "safeguarding" policy. A lot of it is probably based on unreasoned fear but that is the climate at the moment.

Thank God my ds's school would not be concerned about something so normal and trivial. They would treat it for what it is - kids playing out in the sunshine.

DD is six and wears shorts under her dress. Shes big for her age (no, not obese before you ask) and is currently wearing age 11-12 knickers described as "briefs" on the packet. That they are, they cover bugger all.

What are these weird revealing pants? I have two daughters and both of them wear pants and I've never been struck by some incapacity in their undergarments. Normal pants seem to cover their fanjos just fine, insofar as I've ever checked.

The idea that small girls should be anxiously disguising any possible hint of pudenda is distinctly disturbing IMO.

When we were little, girls never wore trousers or shorts, always short full skirts.
SIS and I were very enthusiastic acrobats and loved our cartwheels and handstands. Never gave a thought to showing our knickers. Infact, we probably were out in the garden in the summer only in our knickers. But was only at home or in the garden, not in a public place.

Correction. We had bars at the bus stops and loved sitting on them and swinging upside down and in a circle.

This reminds me of being told off by pe teacher in the seventies for not wearing regulation grey pants under sports dress. My thought at the time was then don't look you old cow.

It would help if the school were more specific about why they expect the girls to do this. It is to protect from paedophiles or another reason?

If paedophiles, who exactly are they thinking of? Teachers? School visitors? Wouldn't these people be screened/ accompanied in the school?