To think that no child should be allowed to ruin the learning of 29 children

[ReallyTired]

My son's year 6 class has been constantly distruped by one or two children. It is unfair that 28 children cannot learn because of the behaviour of one or two.

I feel it really doesn't matter what the reason is for a child who constantly misbehaves (before someone gets out the flame thrower/ violin) the other children have a right to learn in a calm ordered environment. Often badly children do not have learning difficulties or difficult family circumstances.

Or put it another way some children with special needs or a difficult home life have explematory behaviour.

It is not fair that many hard working children have to put up with child X making stupid noises (NOT TOURETTES or any other special need) or constantly shouting out or arguing with the teacher because their parents can't afford private school.

It would be interesting to know what other countries do with children who constantly distrupt the class. (Other than using the cane.)

I believe that Britain's in ablity to deal with low level disruption in the classroom has reduced social mobility.

DS2 would be in top set for putting socks on, Fanjo :o

He doesn't believe in forks, though.

Beer what about a Behaviour Management Policy?

Right, wasn't going to get involved because OP is known for these threads.

However. Dd2, now 16 spent the first term of her primary school stuck outside the headteachers office labelled the naughtiest girl in the school. She was four, ffs. We took her out, got her into a school where the whole class were involved in helping her. She has made some good and loyal friends over the years, they have learnt patience and understanding. She takes her gcses next week. She has been disruptive, but thanks to good teaching which included teaching her peer group coping strategies to help her, she will get to sixth form without too much trouble.
A good teacher Really will manage all things in a classroom.

I don't understand the rosy nostalgia for the 70s and 80s. I was in school then (in both the US and the UK) and it was no golden age of perfectly behaved children. There was certainly low-level disruption and challenging behaviour. And much less understanding of or provisions for children with SN.

I do agree that all children have the right to an education in an environment conducive to learning. But I don't think the answer is an authoritarian approach with a long list of punishments and sanctions, corporal punishment or the threat of it, or regimented behaviourist methods. Those sorts of approaches are based on short term gains and control, and they can so easily backfire. If one child is able to disrupt an entire class, clearly the teacher needs to rethink his/her classroom management techniques.

It is easy to look at a child who is misbehaving and claim that he is choosing to do so. And that may be true. But equally it may not be. I know someone who adopted a child with a harrowing background (abandoned at birth, early months in a hospital, later transferred to an orphanage, very little nurturing from harassed over-worked caregivers). Not surprisingly, he has had a fair number of challenges due to the trauma of his first four years of life. His behaviour at school reflects this background at times. The teachers and school administrators kept saying her son had to "make better choices."

Once at a meeting with these teachers and administrators, the mother of this child picked up a book and dropped it onto the table loudly. All of the people present were startled and reacted instinctively, turning their heads, jumping slightly. My friend said, "Why did you choose to do that?" She was trying to show them that her son wasn't just "making bad choices." He was responding instinctively to the world around him, and he did not (yet) have complete control over his behaviour. Punishing without understanding was just taking him on a road to nowhere. BTW, that meeting was a turning point in her dealings with the school. Things changed for the better for all concerned, including all the other children in her son's classroom.

Tingalingle and Dawn, the strategies that you both talk of (identifying the motivator, getting the whole class involved etc) are pretty common place now. It's great when they work, but they don't always.

I would assume that any decent school would try these things, along with some solid behaviour management policies before they would consider regularly working one to one with a child who receives no extra funding for that.

No matter how right on liberal and PC some posters want to try to be, there are some children that need additional support that the school simply can't access. In those cases, it is right that needs of the whole class are considered, and the situation has to be managed somehow.

Just read the OP.

Actually I agree, that our education system is highly inapproprate for a good number of children and we are going to see the consequences of ineffectual behaviour management systems in both schools and at home shortly.

And don't get me started on the stupid child-initiated learning thing.

However, this is not the child's fault.

It also has to be noted how difficult it is to get a statement now. If you can read and write in my area, you won't get a statement. I have two dds on school action plus. Been there all their school lives despite the fact that 1) I have worked for said authority and wrote most of their guidelines with regard to ASDs.
2) For years, dd1 couldn't manage the lavatory alone.
3) Dd1 is a wheelchair user.
4) They both have Asperger Syndrome.
The system with regard to statementing is farcical.
Personally, I would be prepared to pay more tax to support a better NHS and education system.

' I have ..... so you can't tell me off''

So what DOES he have then?

Can I guess it is 'intolerant interfering classmate parents'?

YANBU OP, but this is mumsnet. In the real world most people would agree that the education of the majority would come first

I know nobody who would happily write off some pupils for the sake of the majority.

In the real world..of selfish gits

'But. Hey ho, in today's inclusive-obssessed climes, the majority have to put up with it so that a minority aren't put out.'

What makes you think the minority aren't put out? I can tell you with certainty, that if they are disruptive, then the absolutely ARE put out and the arrangement isn't working for them either.

The reason they are there, and disruptive, is because society prefers to shun and ingore these children instead of fund and support them.

No, in the real world that I care more about my child's education and therefore future then I do about other children who have absolutely nothing to do with me

Perhaps being in the class will teach your child some tolerance and consideration for others.

This was precisely the motto of my secondary school. The reality is that the one or two disruptive kids kicked off, the teacher spent the entire lesson firefighting, and the kids that wanted to learn sat around bored and irritated and resentful of the naughty kids. I had to buy my own textbooks to get good GCSE results, the poor teachers certainly didn't have time to do any actual teaching.

YANBU

And do you think the parents of the disruptive children don't care? Do you think they would happily have their child written off in order for your child to not have to have anyone who isn't 'perfect' in the class?

Yes delboy I mean the minority don't count do they just exclude and isolate them, who gives a shout anyway... Ffs.

As a society it is our responsibility to help those less fortunate than ourselves. Children aren't born 'naughty' a child with behavior issues needs support and behavior management strategies.

I know one parent thought ds2 was a 'naughty' child, he was just summer born, exceptionally bright but with poor impulse control and pack of emotional maturity. Entirely normal for his age according to camhs and the power and they worked with us and the school to help him control his behavior.

Shame the parent who thought he was naughty didn't stop their child from deliberately winding him up... No it was just ds2 being naughty as far as they were concerned and their own child was perfect...

Yes delboy you belong to the world of selfish gits then....

Honestly....

....and here we are shouting about "our children" and nobody is raising merry hell about the cuts to the Education budget. Staggering.

Miaow, I feel for you. A zero tolerance pupil removal policy with immediately available staff to do the removals would have transformed your job. What was the Head like?

Delboy,,well the unlucky minority cares about their kids too.

How selfish you are.

Of course the minority care about their kids- but why are they expecting everyone else to?

Because in a caring society people care more than just their own little bubble?

Wow, please tell me you are not serious delboy...

"There's Internal Exclusion and parental consultation. There's missing school trips and events.In a decent Behavior Policy."

For internal exclusion to work you need a room where the child can be looked after by a TA. Otherwise the distruptive year 6 child is plunked into a corner of the year 5 classroom or maybe worse still reception. It must be pretty humilating to be put in a corner of the classroom that your little brother/ sister is in.

Surely its kinder for the child to be a seperate room with someone who has the time to talk, chase up referals, help them with work.

Parental consultation is not a punishment and a child cannot be made to miss a school trip as they have a right to education. School trips are part of the curriculum and not a jolly.

In the real world very few parents have sympathy for other people's distruptive children.