To think that no child should be allowed to ruin the learning of 29 children

[ReallyTired]

My son's year 6 class has been constantly distruped by one or two children. It is unfair that 28 children cannot learn because of the behaviour of one or two.

I feel it really doesn't matter what the reason is for a child who constantly misbehaves (before someone gets out the flame thrower/ violin) the other children have a right to learn in a calm ordered environment. Often badly children do not have learning difficulties or difficult family circumstances.

Or put it another way some children with special needs or a difficult home life have explematory behaviour.

It is not fair that many hard working children have to put up with child X making stupid noises (NOT TOURETTES or any other special need) or constantly shouting out or arguing with the teacher because their parents can't afford private school.

It would be interesting to know what other countries do with children who constantly distrupt the class. (Other than using the cane.)

I believe that Britain's in ablity to deal with low level disruption in the classroom has reduced social mobility.

It's not a caring society though, is it?
Its all well and good trying to be inclusive but that's not whats happening. If other students who can behave are suffering as a result of this then it's wrong

With attitudes like yours and others on this thread then sadly no it doesn't seem we do have a caring society.

in the real world very few parents have sympathy for other people's disruptive children

Yes because the very few view the children as if they choose to be disruptive and not wonder why they are disruptive, no kid is born bad. They are made out to be the ones where the blame lies yet are not supported, and yet the very few instinctively blame the parents.

This attitude of out of sight out of mind is going backwards not forwards.
Blaming the child will get you nowhere. Why don't you put your energy into fighting for more provision

'In most cases, the teacher will be as frustrated as anyone else. There is only so much they can do, and even if they have a head teacher that is as supportive as possible, they are still at the mercy of the LA and other services.'

So why do teachers tend to side with the LA against parents who are trying to get some support for their children?

5 schools later and I have found one that doesn't, but its independent.

Reading the last comments by OP and delboy makes me very sad as this disruptive child could very well be my DD.

I am about to go and kiss DD statement as this has a named SS on it.

DD will learn that disruption in SS is norm as no one is perfect and will just make her life more rounded.

I've only read some of the earlier posts, however:

My son is low level and sometimes high level disruptive. He is in reception. Some things he will do is be the class clown and disrupt others from work, laugh overly much and not stop when asked, hitting (others also hit him). The school have a care worker that works with him, he works on different things each week, listening to the teacher, being gentle with class mates, finishing his work etc... and will either get or on his daily sheets.

However it doesn't work!

We took him to a child therapist who sees no problem with him, and told us to ignore the charts the school uses. She sees he is very smart and quick thinking, which his teacher agrees with, and is therefore not pushing him academically which I think is nuts! So from our point of view, and it could all be bollocks, but, we think:

1. the teacher is not the right match for him (she is a bit yoga, hippy, at one with nature type, whereas he responds to firm, strict, clear instruction), or;
2. he is bored (he went to private preschool, and we were told he'd be repeating it all at public reception so this would likely happen), or;
3. he has low attention span, ants in his pants, etc... I sent in some things to help with this used normally for ADHD children, but they were sent home again.

We implemented a few things at the same time as he went to the therapist, such as DH takes time to read him a story and cuddle and chat at bedtime for a good half an hour. His behaviour at home changed back to his normal sunny self (it changed dismally as soon as he started reception), but at school he still struggles.

I don't know what the answer is, but I'm looking for it. I know that kicking them out of class isn't it. More support, more therapy, more one on one, smaller class sizes? It all costs, how do you get the schools to spend money in these areas?

I was an expert in creating low level disruption in primary school. Sometimes veering into high level disruption.
A risque smartarse comment delivered sotto voce that made everyone collapse in giggles
Getting a hand stuck (deliberately) in a radiator and needing the Fire Brigade
Lolly sticks in the extractor fan creating a huge racket
Bursting into tears and hysterics at a sad story, claming it reminded me of my(fictional) mortally ill sibling, causing whole class to sob and be unable to read the story
and so on and so on and so on.

And it was at a PRIVATE SCHOOL.

'As you say, some children choose to behave badly. They probably have a reason for this being the most attractive option to them'

Yes, or the least adversive at any rate. What makes it so for THIS child as opposed to the others?

'Obviously, the ideal would be that extra staff are provided so that disruptive children can be educated in isolation away from engaged pupils'

Why is that a)ideal and b)obvious?

Cloud

'However, there is a disruptive child in the class I work in. We have kept a log for over a year, but it doesn't get read by anyone who could make a difference. We have pushed and pushed and pushed for support from the LEA, they have been about as much help as a chocolate fire guard.'

Have you applied for a statement for this child?

Reallytired what do you think happens to theses kids once they are booted out to go to the naughty classes?

Did you know that pupils with a statement of sen are 8 times more likely to be excluded than pupils without sen?

Did you know that young people with sen are more likely to go to prison than young people without sen - a direct result of their needs not being identified and met in the education system.

You should all care about what happens to young people with sen. I'm disgusted by some of posts on this thread.

To those suggesting isolation for disruptive children can you answer how disruptive a child has to be before they are carted off and educationally left to rot?

My ds has an asd and hums. No teacher has ever called him disruptive but he hums and also flaps, this can be through excitement, upset or when he's concentrating.

Although only yr2 they are streamed for numeracy and literacy and although he initially struggled with changing classrooms he now is fine and in both top sets. Isolation would devastate him.

'I think we have to be as pragmatic as possible and whilst striving to be as inclusive and welcoming to as many children as possible into mainstream education, we have to realise that in some cases it is simply not possible and some sort of streaming, as undesirable as it is, is the only solution. (And I would assume as much as possible has been done to avoid this conclusion)'

Woah! How little you know of the real world. Assumption indeed.

no, they are sent to prison as a direct result of committing crime(s) Funny enough no one has ever been imprisoned for shit gcse results

How do you explain the high proportion of people in prison with sen?

'It surely cannot be right to have the majority of the class's education suffering because there is an individual who is not responding to any special measures the school has implemented'

Again there is a WILD assumption here that the school has got any will, desire to fund, or even cba to implement special measures that the child will respond to. Those with children with SN usually find they have not, and only admit this once the child is self-harming/throwing chairs, by which time it is usually far too late.

But Del can you seriously not see how being pushed to one side/labelled as naughty etc will cause life long issues?

NO child should be abandoned by a school simply because they are naughty. School needs to work with them, with their families and with anyone else needed to ensure that they don't miss out on an education as a result of whatever is causing the problems

No, in the real world that I care more about my child's education and therefore future then I do about other children who have absolutely nothing to do with me
Goodness, you're a charmer, aren't you!

Blu, can I just say that I like the cut of your gib? though I'm glad I didn't have to teach you

I actually agree with a lot of what cloudsandtrees says (and I never do normally!) but it makes sense.
I think (I hope) what she means about not expecting every child to have the exact same education, is that one size does not fit all.
Disruptive children (who are NOT all SEN-the SEN kids in ds's class tend not to be disruptive) often need to be handled in a different way, and it would be better to have kids grouped sometimes according to learning style, and what works for them.
It isn't fair on any child if their teacher spends all his time trying to manage behaviour.
Unfortunately, as JakeBullet has pointed out, we are suffering unprecedented cuts in education (at a time where schools are already bursting at the seams) and that should be a major concern to all parents.
.

Jake Support isn't being cut. The funding is being taken off of the LA and given directly to schools.

The trouble is, that leaves no money for the LA to then fund support, and the money the schools get isn't ringfenced for SEN/Behaviour so they are flicking through catelogues of vegetable patches, sports equipment and new chairs for the staffroom whilst telling parents that the LA will not fund their children's needs anymore.

KitchenandJumble Wow what a great idea that mother had! Wish I'd used that one myself

My DD2 started her education in mainstream school and was then statemented (with a considerable fight attached to that) and moved to a specialist EBD school. She was 9 when she moved to from MS to SS.

She has many emotional and behavioural problem but her mainstream school were incapable of even grasping what her problems were and why she had them - let alone begin working with me to find solutions. God knows I tried to explain what PTSD is, I tried to explain her fear, anxiety, trauma and pain, but they persisted in seeing her as 'naughty' and attempting to use behavioural modification techniques that were useless. I refrained from saying 'I told you so' when they failed. Her time at the school was hellish, because I was forever being called in, they forever refused to listen to me, DD got more and more anxious and hated school more and more as time went on.

Yes, her behaviour was obviously too much for a mainstream school, but I don't have the power to just move her. Yes her behaviour was impacting on the other students, and yes, it's hard on them. But what's supposed to happen? I can't just move schools. The school needed to be including her, working with her and me, and finding ways to work WITH her special needs. You can't punish away the PTSD/any other kind of SN.

They wouldn't even agree to move her seat for crying out loud! I tried to explain that she was finding it anxiety provking and at times frightening to sit near the door with the door behind her, and she would better being next to a wall, with a wall behind her, and so she can see the doors. But no, apparently that was impossible to manage because they have a seating system already and moving her would ruin their arrangement

I am glad to know how many teachers there are who fight for help and try to think outside the box and who also want to actually help all their students. But it's no good without the rest of the school staff wanting to know about it, and active parental involvement is helpful.

I would love to see more special schools which deal with behavioural needs with lots of resources in them, but it doesn't seem likely. I would like to see more resources and provision for school

So, on the basis of what the OP is saying, if her child undergoes (god forbid) some type of tragedy at home/school and then herself becomes disruptive in school afterwards while she is coping with it, the OP is quite happy for her own child to be shuffled off out of the classroom and not allowed in regular lessons as she is disturbing others... ?

I honestly think that for some on this thread that there is a serious need to see the situation from the other side of the fence. Do you think your child is never going to go through a difficult phase? Perhaps in teen years? or pre-teen? Do you think they'll never struggle with a family trauma/tragedy that will cause them some problems at school? A medical/emotional trauma that will stir up behavioural problems? They'll never rebel? Rose coloured glasses over there on the table.. you may need them.

The ignorance and lack of compassion is staggering. The "I'm alright, Jack" attitude is pretty sad, as well.

Something to consider for those who have those perfectly behaved NT children that are being so inconvenienced by the "undesirables".... "There but for the grace of God go I.." Have a think about it.