To think that no child should be allowed to ruin the learning of 29 children

[ReallyTired]

My son's year 6 class has been constantly distruped by one or two children. It is unfair that 28 children cannot learn because of the behaviour of one or two.

I feel it really doesn't matter what the reason is for a child who constantly misbehaves (before someone gets out the flame thrower/ violin) the other children have a right to learn in a calm ordered environment. Often badly children do not have learning difficulties or difficult family circumstances.

Or put it another way some children with special needs or a difficult home life have explematory behaviour.

It is not fair that many hard working children have to put up with child X making stupid noises (NOT TOURETTES or any other special need) or constantly shouting out or arguing with the teacher because their parents can't afford private school.

It would be interesting to know what other countries do with children who constantly distrupt the class. (Other than using the cane.)

I believe that Britain's in ablity to deal with low level disruption in the classroom has reduced social mobility.

I agree with the sentiment - as a DC whose dyslexia went undiagnosed throughout school but because I was quiet and well behaved got sat to the naughty disruptive DC - I heard a lot about tolerance and how I should learn to deal with it.

It didn't do me any good - I'm sure many of the disruptive DC did have SEN issues - however making it my problem just meant I had yet more issues to get over by myself.

In practice there is always going to be some level of disruption - even my DC school which has a huge number of support staff and smaller rooms available can still struggle on occasions.

Yanbu, i had this growing up at junior school and it severely affected my learning as i could not concentrate. I believe children that misbehave in class should have some sort of isolation in another room with the other misbehaving children from other classes, that way everyone gets to learn, because after all that is what you are in school for.
Why should the minority ruin things for the majority that choose to learn? So 27 children suffer due to 2 naughty children and that is ok? (special needs children disregarded)

"
FWIW, I went to primary school in the late 60s and early 70s. There were simply no disruptive children"

They had the cane in the late 60s and early 70s. There was a different power balance in the past and teachers were given more respect by parents.

If children played up as badly as a few do today then they would have been hit. If the child then whined to their parents about being hit then they might have got smacked again.

In the 60s and 70s there were more EBD special schools, but classes were far bigger and there were no TAs.

I don't want a return to the cane, but it would be interesting to know how other countries manage discipline. I know that the US, France and Germany use the threat of keeping a child down a year, but american schools aren't better behaved than UK schools.

Well I think YANBU but... That's because I am utterly selfish when I come to my dd and happy to admit it.

"My goodness the violins are out"

Miiaoouuww

I don't much like the tome of the OP, but I can see her point.
My secondary school was dogged by terrible behaviour managment, and some classes were just total chaos.
Mainly due to ineffectual teachers/behaviour managment strategies.
I learned basically nothing at high school and left by 16.
Most of the kids who were disruptive, were generally bright, lazy, bored, and caused havoc because they could.
OK, fine. It was me. I was disruptive. I have no real excuse.
Can I also just say that PoppadomPreach is an excellent nickname.(Appropos of nowt)

The chances are that even if your dc have gone through an idyllic, blissfully calm 7 primary years, they will get to high school and there will be all manner of 'disruptive' pupils there.

They're not going away, nothings going to change so im afraid they will just gave to learn to tolerate it, if its low level messing about, humming, farting, giggling....whatever. Obviously a line is crossed when racial, physical or sexual abuse is happening.

What would you do with the permanentley excluded pupil? Send him/her to someone else's school to be disruptive there? What's the answer?

Fwiw the two most disruptive boys in ds's class were pulled out and enrolled in private school.

Isn't this a teaching/management issue?

Of course, it's the teacher's fault! Silly me.

Hence why we have an issue with badly behaved children in this country. Behaviour (acceptable/not acceptable/limits of etc) is learnt at home.

Back in the 70's, 80's (as someone else commented above), you were likely to get in trouble twice if you were in trouble at school.

Now the parents automatically side with their child, because no way could their little darling possibly have done something awful.

OP YANBU. Teachers are sick of it too generally. No back up from HT's or governors and kids are generally allowed to get away with murder.

You may have a point OP, but they way you pitched your idea won't go down well here. Language and key-words are everything on MN.

I have no idea how inclusivity in the classroom has improved the life-chance of the children who would have otherwise languished in SBUs and I'd love to know. I would also like to know how the life-chances of the majority of the pupils have changed since the change in educational ethos.

I have noticed an upswing in disruptive behaviour in the under 5's groups that I visit because they are so easily distracted by the "silly" behaviour of just one child. There seems to be a leaning towards not leading disruptive children into more sensible behaviour patterns, often meaning that a whole session is a pointless waste of time for all of us.

I can easily extrapolate this kind of atmosphere into a reception/year one classroom and agree with you that young children need good models to help them with their behaviour, not "tolerated disruption" in the name of PC inclusivity. It fails both the majority of the children who are learning nothing, and the disruptees who clearly need more guidance and help with their learning.

Many modern classsrooms seem to be an exercise in benign child enclosure rather than education.

There are some good and sensible points about schools and behaviour management here.

But how nasty is it to mention violins, when people talk about their children's needs or problems they have had with school.

SmugViolinMentioner is a handy new descriptor for the arsehole spreadsheet.

Yes..I sound 14..before someone says that.

It's not about "language and key words", but general attitude.

How many more ways to belittle peoples objections to crappy threads?

You have to say the right things in the right way, otherwise your post is picked to pieces and derailled and many valid points are lost both in the OP and any resutling discourse.

I've seen it again and again.

Its good to use the right words.

But its best if you say the right things because you actually mean them..with no digs about being PC etc.

Which usually happens.

If you met my DS at your house, he would be well-behaved. If you saw him in the classroom, he'd be badly behaved - getting up/wandering off/shouting out.

He has SN but you wouldn't know that. I expect you'd blame it on the fact that I'm a single parent

Im not in the UK so schooling is a bit different here. Generally speaking, special needs children are enrolled at a special needs school (private if parents can afford, and public if not. If a public place is needed the child will have place in mainstream schooling until a more suitable place is found by education department). But i think the term 'special needs' is used differently here. My ds has diagnosis of ADhD 7 years ago and is not classed as in a special needs situation. My dd on the other hand had special support for 2 years with one teacher at school with suspected learning disability. She repeated a year and is now longer on support as its no longer required as she was emotionally immature and repeating the year has helped her so much.

But back to disruptive children.. in our schools if the child is disruptive there are disciplinary procedures which are put into place. Each school has code of conduct and in this conduct it states that each child has the right to work in an undisruptive environment. THe procedures are followed by if it is found that these procedures dont 'resolve' the behaviour then the child will be referred to an educational psychologist and they will be tested etc. Another placement will be applied for if necessary. In high school it is more difficult. I see on ds coc that if they have a certain amount of de-merits they will be asked to leave the school. (300 or more) There is a whole list of things that falls under the expulsion catergory. I think this is one of the reasons that home schooling is becoming more popular.

Every child belongs to their local community, their local school. They are part of that microcosm of society and should be welcomed.

If the issue is behavioural, then it is your responsibility, as a citizen of that society, to support the parents and school. I have found, as a teacher, social exclusion in the community can be an enormous factor.

If the issue is an additional support need, it is your responsibility, as a citizen of that society, to have some compassion and teach your children to have some too.

Human beings respond best when integrated into the community to which they belong. These are children you are talking about. Children. They have a capacity for change that is beyond the vast majority of adults.

Learning tolerance, compassion and how to support others in need is as, if not more, important as academic progress.

You should go into school and lend your weight to finding this child more support in class. Parents have enormous power - use it. Campaign to get a TA for this child.

All children belong to all of us.

Stargirl you just restored my faith in human nature :)

The chances are that even if your dc have gone through an idyllic, blissfully calm 7 primary years, they will get to high school and there will be all manner of 'disruptive' pupils there.

My first two years of secondary were blissful - they did two streams I was top sets and while they'd be odd disruption everyone did want to learn and could behave themselves.

I only had one class a G.C.S.E where I had to cope with disruptive other students and the teacher managed them very successfully usually. Under supply teacher we had for a few months these lesson did get to be hell.

Plus being able to seat myself where I wanted and having different teachers with differing management techniques did mean I got a break from constant disruption and at that age I could manage my own learning to an extent.

I think everyone would like all school child to not have to deal with disruptions - but the younger the DC the less able I feel they are able to cope with it especially when they are learning core skills that everything else is built on.

Yes, they would be so much better behaved if they ate school dinners

Yes, thank you stargirl.

I wish everyone felt that my DS (who is pretty bright by all accounts) deserved access to education in the same way as their NT children do.

to have some compassion and teach your children to have some too.

It's not that I don't have compassion - I've seen how hard families with children with SEN have to fight to get help -I do but I also have experience of being a child who had to cope with daily disruption while having issues of my own and having most adults telling me that it was my problem to cope with.

I do teach my DC to have compassion - however one of my DC is extremely anxious and very sensitive to noise. There have been a few times when usually her new teacher sit her next to disruptive DC to make them behave better. It makes her extremely distressed - I found nothing we say seems to change this - her teachers usually move her fairly quickly to the quietest place because her distress mounts to the point where she becomes disruptive by being near hysterical in class.

There does seem to be the assumption that the children being disrupted have no issues of their own and should just accept the disruption.

I do agree that what ever is causing the disruption SEN or other things it is a issue with the school managing the behavior.

I had written out a post, but I'm with fanjo here... I might as well flame myself rather than post it.

I'll never change the opinions of posters like angelos and there are not enough lovely people like stargirl in this world.

So OP YANBU you are entitled to your own opinion whether or not it is ethical or politically correct.

All posters have to look themselves in the mirror and see themselves and know in their hearts whether or not they are decent human beings.

I'm not perfect. My heart is in the right place though.

I don't like the tone in the OP that appears to be looking to generalise and blame the child without any idea of the causes for that behaviour.

The issue is that schools don't have the resources (people and training) to effectively deal with the behaviour whilst also ensuring that other pupils get the help and support they need.

FWIW, I went to primary school in the late 60s and early 70s. There were simply no disruptive children**

My dad was a teacher throughout that time, and can I just say, on his behalf, that that is simply bollocks.