To think that no child should be allowed to ruin the learning of 29 children

[ReallyTired]

My son's year 6 class has been constantly distruped by one or two children. It is unfair that 28 children cannot learn because of the behaviour of one or two.

I feel it really doesn't matter what the reason is for a child who constantly misbehaves (before someone gets out the flame thrower/ violin) the other children have a right to learn in a calm ordered environment. Often badly children do not have learning difficulties or difficult family circumstances.

Or put it another way some children with special needs or a difficult home life have explematory behaviour.

It is not fair that many hard working children have to put up with child X making stupid noises (NOT TOURETTES or any other special need) or constantly shouting out or arguing with the teacher because their parents can't afford private school.

It would be interesting to know what other countries do with children who constantly distrupt the class. (Other than using the cane.)

I believe that Britain's in ablity to deal with low level disruption in the classroom has reduced social mobility.

[Dinkysmummy]

I'm going out on a branch here...

So those with non SN kids and have very little empathy for these children, want inclusion to end and all challenging SEN/SN children (because behavioural difficulties are in fact classed as SEN when they are long term and unchanging), to be put in special classrooms or schools as long as they don't have to pay extra tax.

All those who either have dc with SN and those who have the required empathy to see these children with SN as human beings who should get the support they need to stay in mainstream have to argue with those unable to get past the fact that their poor perfect DC have to mingle with children with SN who may be a little disruptive at times. (as I'm sure these kids don't get in a 9am and start humming and repeatedly hum until 3.20pm)

Wow....
And I thought we moved on as a society

[Sirzy]

Putting them in a different classroom doesn't solve anything though does it, just moves the issue elsewhere.

Unless it is in the best interest of that child to be taught in a specialist unit then support should be put in place to help that child in the classroom not just shifting the problem elsewhere.

[fanjoforthemammaries7850]

although Dinky's solution is far kinder and better :)

[fanjoforthemammaries7850]

(dinky's and sirzy's)

[PoppadomPreach]

But Fanjo - in an ideal world, we all agree that EVERy child has his/her precise needs met, and everyone is taught together, and no-one feels they are being treated differently because of their particular need.

But how can we actually achieve this?

I think we have to be as pragmatic as possible and whilst striving to be as inclusive and welcoming to as many children as possible into mainstream education, we have to realise that in some cases it is simply not possible and some sort of streaming, as undesirable as it is, is the only solution. (And I would assume as much as possible has been done to avoid this conclusion)

It surely cannot be right to have the majority of the class's education suffering because there is an individual who is not responding to any special measures the school has implemented.

I suspect I am about to be flamed and described as callous/completely lacking in compassions etc, but I just don't know what the practical solution is - I'm only reading "ideal world" scenarios where we all love and hug each other any everything is then sorted. That is just not going to happen!

[fanjoforthemammaries7850]

In an ideal world the children will be in the best setting for them.

My DD is not in mainstream as it is not suitable for her.

Sadly this does not happen.

But there is generally SOME sort of streaming..i.e my DD being at special school.

Interestingly she is quiet at school but some of the other children are very disruptive indeed. She just has to suck it up.

But still loves school.

[CloudsAndTrees]

Putting the disruptive children in a different classroom actually solves the problem of the other children's learning being interrupted very well.

Providing a teacher or TA to deliver the lesson to one, two, or a few children solves the problem of those children not having a lesson delivered in the way that is most appropriate to them. An adult with a very small number of children can provide the individual attention, pace, and personal response to the child that just cannot be achieved in a class of thirty.

There are other opportunities throughout the school day for all children to be together, and learn the PSE side of things.

There is of course the problem that lunchtime staff are often paid a pittance so are untrained and are uninvested in children making the most out of that (IMO) critical hour of the day, but that's a separate problem and probably a different thread.

[iamsmokingafag]

so the disruptive children (who may well have undxed SEN)are moved into the 'naughty' class with a TA?

[CloudsAndTrees]

They won't learn anything there, Clouds, believe me. Not unless the funding is there for that as a specialist unit

I think that is something that depends on the age of the child and the severity of the disruption the child displays.

There does not need to be a specialist unit for low level disruptive behaviour, even if it is persistent, but other children should be allowed to learn without that in the majority of their lessons.

[Sirzy]

Good post Fanjo. Mainstream education is, rightly so, the default for all children. For some children they need more than can be offered in a mainstream school and there are some fantastic schools that can offer that.

Children should not be separated from their peers simply because they can be disruptive (as a long term solution), that is rarely what is best for the child and doesn't help them cope in situations, it doesn't get to the route of the problem.

[Kiriwawa]

What do you mean by 'streaming' Poppadom? Normally that refers to grouping children by ability.

My DS is very able, he just struggles with the general hubbub of classrooms so if they introduced 'streaming' he'd probably be in the top set. Or do you mean he should be put in a class with all the children who are struggling because he has SN?

[fanjoforthemammaries7850]

Clouds..I am honestly asking.

Do you actually care about the education of the few children, or do you just want them away from your DC?

[fanjoforthemammaries7850]

I think the key for me here is that you are using "disruption" about the children, rather than saying that THEY have needs.

[WilsonFrickett]

Can I just point out at this point that it wasn't my idea for my DS to be educated in mainstream education? But while he's there, I'll be damned if he'll be sent out to a cupboard to be taught by a completely unqualified TA.

[iamsmokingafag]

totally agree with sirzy
far better to identify the triggers for the behaviour and to put support in place

[lljkk]

"...made an example of permamently excluded."

And then what? What do you think happens? The govt.still has an obligation to educate them. The PRUs are short-staffed as it is. Parents who care will be devastated & parents who don't care will continue to do nothing.

My dad went to school in 1940s & was frequently disruptive. Regular paddling by the head teacher had no impact.

I can testify that we had plenty disruption in 1970s American classrooms. American kids normally only held down a year for academic reasons, never behaviour ones.

[CloudsAndTrees]

Where is that Teacher or TA going to come from, Clouds? There generally aren't that many 'spares' floating about.

That's the point I originally made! I'm well aware there generally aren't many around. The LA is responsible for funding more if they are needed, but it is, in my experience, very difficult to convince an LA that it is worth providing one. They only have a limited budget.

I agree that sanctions would be better, but there is only so far a school can go. Endlessly sending a child to the head, withdrawing playtime, and calling the parents in for meetings doesn't always work.

[CloudsAndTrees]

Not if they are from a range of classes, all doing different work, with one TA overseeing that range of skills?

Then to meet their needs, more than one TA is needed obviously.

I do see what you are saying, but you have to weigh up how much they are learning in the other class as well.

[ReallyTired]

Many children SN do not distrupt learning. They are often victims of bullying because they cannot speak out as well as children without SN.

'perhaps it teaches you tolerance, empathy and understanding too'.

Having lots of empathy, understanding without basic maths and english skills will not make someone employable. Children only get one chance to go to school. Children only have one childhood.

Bad behaviour should never be tolerated. Prehaps children with behavioural problems should have some empathy and understanding, but that is very different to making pathetic excuses and allowing them to continue.

Racism, bullying or totally wrecking a teachers lesson should never be tolerated.

[iamsmokingafag]

have you seen this strategy in action clouds?

how will school reintegrate the child back into their peer group or are they booted out for good?

would you be concerned at the effect on the child's self-esteem at being relegated to the naughty class.

[PoppadomPreach]

Kiriwawa - you are right, streaming is usually referring to academic ability and that's not what I meant. I just mean that some sort of splitting of the class, removing the disruptive kids (as awful as that sounds, I'm not comfortable writing it).

As I said, I don't know what the alternative is, given the cost constraints the whole of the public sector are subjected to.