To think that no child should be allowed to ruin the learning of 29 children

[ReallyTired]

My son's year 6 class has been constantly distruped by one or two children. It is unfair that 28 children cannot learn because of the behaviour of one or two.

I feel it really doesn't matter what the reason is for a child who constantly misbehaves (before someone gets out the flame thrower/ violin) the other children have a right to learn in a calm ordered environment. Often badly children do not have learning difficulties or difficult family circumstances.

Or put it another way some children with special needs or a difficult home life have explematory behaviour.

It is not fair that many hard working children have to put up with child X making stupid noises (NOT TOURETTES or any other special need) or constantly shouting out or arguing with the teacher because their parents can't afford private school.

It would be interesting to know what other countries do with children who constantly distrupt the class. (Other than using the cane.)

I believe that Britain's in ablity to deal with low level disruption in the classroom has reduced social mobility.

Nope. Not all children that disrupt classes have SEN. But a lot do. And since you're highly unlikely to know the difference (you know, being not an expert or having access to their school files and all)... wouldn't it be grand if people were considerate enough to give them the benefit of the doubt.

TAs take lessons all the time? Well, not ALL the time, or they'd be teachers, eh?

Since when did 'significant proportion' mean all?

I will now leave you to fight amongst yourselves about who can be the most PC. Have fun!

God you're thick.

Who is being PC anyway?

Surely you mean factually correct, rather than politically correct clouds?

The primary school my kids attend has a number of children who may or may not have SEN but are often highly disruptive because they attend school irregularly, have unstable home environments, and lack discipline. They come from a minority community that struggles to provide behavioural boundaries.

It is really hard for these kids to adjust to an institutional environment where they are expected to sit still, do as they are told and so on, when they do not have these expectations at home.

Some of the time the parents can be brought on board some more but sometimes they can't, because their community does not really value education at all, and it is kind of amazing the kids are there at all.

The teachers are doing their best, but don't have the resources to deal with it optimally and classes are already big. !any will leave primary school all but illiterate.

I still think these kids should be part of the class but with extra support for everyone while they are struggling. Which is for a long time. The whole class does 'suffer' while these kids are learning, but what is the answer? More resources, more one-to-one support, more inclusion.

The school does get extra resources for children from this community, but as far as I can tell it is nowhere near enough for the challenges presented. Sometimes the Year One children get sent back to Reception for a while, for instance, because they just need to learn to meet certain expectations before they can learn at all. Obviously if they had fully-fledged SEN, I assume this would not be appropriate, although I don't know enough about it.

To be honest, the more I see the huge, huge range of children in a class the more I am astonished that teachers manage at all. What a challenging job. I am so glad I'm not a teacher and I'm not at all surprised so many leave the profession.

The question is should one or a handful of pupils be allowed to disrupt classes and therefore disrupt the education of others. No. All my kids are in classes with disruptive kids mostly boys it seems. Should I care more about the disruptive childrens possible sn or home life and think fuck my kids education? Seriously?? I care about my kids because they are my responsibility. It amazes me how some people on here think that suddenly, everyone else's kids should become someone else's problem. There is plenty of support out there for parents who cannot parent properly or have sn children. There is no support for parents who just want their kids to get a decent education but cannot afford to pay for it. Next they'll be people saying don't have kids unless you can afford to pay for private education and that free education should only be for the poor or those with learning difficulties but no would anyone really go that far???

'There is plenty of support for parents of sn children'

Erm.....no there isn't

"Do you think all children whose behaviour regularly disrupts the learning of the class should be educated separately? Would you be willing to pay towards a massive rise in taxation in order to fund this provision?"

Yes and yes

It's a good job I wasn't dismissing all of them then, isn't it?

There is no support for parents who just want their kids to get a decent education but cannot afford to pay for it.

Parents of NT children are not the only ones that just want their kids to get a decent education, you know. I'd rather like my DS that has SNs to get a decent education as well.

"Do you think all children whose behaviour regularly disrupts the learning of the class should be educated separately? Would you be willing to pay towards a massive rise in taxation in order to fund this provision?"
Yes and yes

Wow. Another person that feels their lives will never be touched by anything. Rose coloured glasses... on that table over there. You'll need them too.

Maybe, but I haven't seen anyone come up with any other solutions. But I guess that's ok on MN, because apparently the only right answer is that we should be tolerant of anything and everything, even at the expense of education.

On the surface no it isn't fair. However, it's a fact of life. Hopefully, the school is doing it's best to manage the situation. The school should be managing the situation properly so if you're not happy then get in touch with your LA. Let's face it, disruptive badly behaviour children are hardly a new phenomena. Though you would think they were reading some people's comments.

Seabird

'There is plenty of support out there for parents who cannot parent properly or have sn children.'

Please can you qualify this.

Seabird72

Plenty of support for SN?

Seriously

In this county in the last year the following cuts have been made:

Preschool SEN teacher team who working with those suspected of SEN prior to school
Most Ed Psych provision now has to be paid for at about £90-100 per hour
All the ASD specialist teachers, only support staff remain and they are absolutely rammed with a 3 month wait
Most of the short break services
A lot of parents are having their personal budgets reviewed and cuts - these are what they pay sessional workers with for much needed respite
Teachers for the deaf have been reduced / cover larger geographical areas and thus children see them less
Speech & Language services are non-existent and will often just assess, not work with children
Occ therapy same as Speech & Language...
Equipment services have been almost completely cut
There is an 11 month wait for continence support for children with SEN

I can currently access an ASD team who can offer some emotional work / behaviour work and a short break service. I am lucky as many parents have even less.

As for schools they get a bigger SEN budget but central government has stopped providing support for free so the schools have to pay for more. They also get no extra funding for smaller statements so only the Band E & F statements attract a top up and that is an amount that wont even pay for a part time TA....
When schools now engage professionals their are less of them across the board and thus they are waiting literally months & months for reports. My son saw a comm paed in february and we still do not have a letter to inform the next stage - there is real risk we wont get it before the end of the academic year.

Now I agree that none of this should impact of other children but really I can see the position of other parents who have children affected by my son but really don't tell me that I or school have 'support' because we dont.

Now there are some schools which manage better with what they've got than others and the attitude of the Governing body is key to the success... thats why I always suggest putting your concerns in writing to them rather than deflecting blame on to the kids, the parents or the school staff because they are all part of bigger processes...
Governing bodies can make or break a school and they can make a real difference but only if they really understand what is happening in the school.

'because apparently the only right answer is that we should be tolerant of anything and everything, even at the expense of education.'

I haven't seen anyone say that. Not anyone.

"There is no support for parents who just want their kids to get a decent education but cannot afford to pay for it."

Oh what utter bollocks.

This is a fact: hard working children with supportive parents do well in any half decent school.

A school doesn't need to be able to exclude children with special needs to deliver a good service.

My children's school is one of the best in the borough for SATS results and value added, despite being in one of the poorest areas and having a disproportionate number of children on free school meals, children with SEN and children with English as a second language.

"On the surface no it isn't fair. However, it's a fact of life."

I think it's far more unfair that religious people can bag their children places at some of the most educationally successful schools in the country over the heads of children who live on the doorstep of the school, but who aren't fortunate enough to have church-going parents.

And that rich people can pay thousands for tutoring and private prep-school eduction, which mean that middle-class children from well off families are VASTLY over represented at the best state grammar schools.

Seriously - it's really grotesque to be directing your ire at those children and families who are the most disadvantaged and the most likely to fail in education.