Is there ANY proven correlation between school uniform and performance?

[Hullygully]

Any data (either way) anywhere?

And what purpose is this?

I suspect that your 'lovely, faded patched' jeans were just too lovely and faded to be considered 'smart casual'.

Basically, you looked like a tramp pulled through a hedge backwards.

Long thread. I wish I had time to read it all but don't however I wanted to say I totally agree with everything Rooney has said.
Also uniform causes resentment and rebellion, because it has a de-humanising affect at the secondary my children go to. They won't even let the children roll their sleeves up a little or wear cotton trousers. It pisses me off a lot. I want to say to the teachers, you wear fucking teflon then, go on.

It make me so angry. It's so petty and controlling. My kids school is exceptionally uptight about uniform.

Spidermama I had this non-cotton crap with DD1 at middle school. She has eczema, their logo'd 65% polyester crap overpriced polo shirts made it worse.

Lazarus and all the uniform fans - I had a girl in my class who went to school in full punk rig. Dyed spiked black hair, white makeup, black lipstick, the works. No-one batted an eyelid - she worked hard, behaved well, got good marks.

And then she went to university and got a good job, for which she dressed smartly. It'as utterly patronising to think that forcing children into uniform straitjackets is necessary.

Mts and Lazarus, ha ha ha!

Your punk probably put a fair bit of effort in to her ensemble.

Ths discipline and pride in appearance mapped across when she droped the punk look.

Possibly. But that doesn't negate the argument that allowing children to wear what they want means they will fail to dress appropriately in later life.

Personally, I think that as long as clothing is clean and covers the essential bits that should do. In many schools in the Netherlands particular brands are not allowed, but that is because they are associated with neo Nazism and the far right in general, and given the facts of history I think that's probably fair enough.

seeker - Hollyberrybush- are there two St Columbas in Bexley?

No just the one. And one is enough. The girls is St Catherines (worked there too) and it distances its self well away from the boys school. We could have a whole gender based discussion here too, the ethnic intake is similar, but the girls have worked out that education is the route out of poverty and the road to success.

Why do you ask if there are two?

The other Saturday I picked up my DD from the town center (she had spent the afternoon with her mates). Imagine 5 girls all dressed in Hollister T Shirt, Jack Wills top, jeans and Ugg boots plus Cath Kidson bag.

Reminds me of that Life of Brian scene. "You don't need to follow me. You are all individuals". "Yes we are all individuals" replied the crowd in perfect unison.

Hollyberrybush- because the one I looked up seems to be a good school with outstanding features where the children all feel very safe and which has few ethnic minority students. I must be looking at the wrong one somehow- or it has changed massively in the last two years.

I think that what it comes down to is that the British have a weird obsession with telling other people and being told themselves how to dress. Catmint's comment about non-uniform hidden rules supports this assertion.

LazarusLozenge where did Catmint say there was a smart casual rule or that she looked like she had been dragged through a hedge?

I think that the whole brand importance is limited to a fairly small number of over-indulged teenagers. My DDs have a strictly limited allowance and are able to dress well on it without whining for Hollister or whatever.

Yup, the Brits have cornered the market on being judgy pants on what people wear. You never get the French or the Italians doing that.

And I agree that this brand awareness is confined to a small number of over indulged teenagers. I hear that Jack Wills is filing for bankruptcy because business is so bad, what with so few over indulged teenagers around.

DD1 is scathing about Jack Wills because some of the teachers in her school wear it .

Worry, yes the unwritten rules are unhelpful.

There may have been a smart casual rule, but it was 25 years ago so I can't remember being told it. "Denim trousers" stuck in my mind as such a weird concept.

As for hedges/ backwards.... Meh, I don't care if people thought I was scruffy 25 years ago, or now. It is not my measure of worth.

dd says only the stupid girls care about what they wear, and that she doesn't care what they think.

There seems to be a fair variation in dress at both their schools with the most common being jeans and t-shirts. Still that gives a fair space for variety, plus at least you can choose jeans that fit and t-shirts that are comfortable. No rules on hair either. dd currently has pink and blue streaks and one of ds's best friends has a mohican. Both are high achievers (dd is right the girls that go all out on the clothes/make up front are in general not terribly bright or particularly nice).

Girls that are into make/clothes up are generally not terribly bright or particularly nice? Bit of a sweeping generalisation there.

Yes I thought it might go nicely with the 'children who don't make an effort with their appearance have no discipline' type comments.

Of course it would have been a massive generalization if I had commented about all girls but it certainly appears to be the case when I look at dd's peers. I have not noticed a particular connection between smartness of clothes and that of brains so I am not sure why schools seem to think that there is one. Or between uniform and pride in your school, or being told off for stupid infractions and therefore conforming to major rules.

It's all baloney really.

'MTSCostcoChickenFan Sun 05-May-13 20:51:13

Reminds me of that Life of Brian scene. "You don't need to follow me. You are all individuals". "Yes we are all individuals" replied the crowd in perfect unison.'

I'm not!

WorrySigh, I was not the one who said 'smart casual', I just said she obviously looked scruffy in the teachers eyes - hence the hedge, it was tongue in cheek!

It's pretty simple really. No uniform, 'denim trousers' are allowed, most of the kids wear jeans. Catmint wore a pair of jeans that were 'scruffier' than the school tolerated... and was told about it. It was just a pupil consciously or unconsciously pushing the boundaries a little.

And if you think only 'over-indulged' kids worry about brands... you need to listen in (not talk to them) to their conversations.

It's amazing how many posters have had said 'i asked my kid and they said...' yes, because they tell you everything don't they?

One says only a select group of girls worry about what they are wearing?

Rubbish.

What you probably have there is a distinct set of girls who openly worry about what they wear, and another group who 'don't worry' externally and internally use this fact as a point to see themselves as above the 'worriers'.

In fact she WILL worry about her dress. Possibly more so, next time you see them as a group look for the similarities. Because she regards the other group as 'stupid' it indicates her own group see themselves as superior, so exile will be a fate worse than a fate worse than death.

I'll be honest, I don't really go for this whole appearance/discipline either. But it does seem quite a common belief. To me clothes cover my body, and my (usually unkempt) hair keeps my head warm. Luckily my wife backstops me if I am going somewhere important.

Oh, and just to add. If you DD is in such a group, as described, I can assure you the 'thick' girls will be no where near as nasty.

Before they meet up, look for signs of stress in your DD or other girls in the group. The 'gang-colours' don't have to be dress, do you have to buy a certain calculator? Pen set? Bag... does she worry unduly about tests? Has she ever mentioned a 'hard-figure' for tests ie I can't get below 90%.

Food for thought.

Slightly off topic but friend's DH is in a US Air Force special forces unit. He was saying that in regular units this whole thing about uniform and short hair is important because it croeates a state of mind that is conducive to good soldiering. However, SF operators on the other hand have quite a lot of freedom since their superiors want to encourage individuality.

Its just my roundabout way of saying that a uniform policy in some situations has value.

We do have uniform where I teach. There is a polo shirt and sweatshirt which you order via the office. However, we are more interested in the kids wearing school colours. Lots if our families but Asda polo shirts and sweatshirts in the same colours and that is fine. Feedback from parents is positive and the kids don't grumble either. It's a toughish catchment with a lot of social deprivation. Uniforms are not all bad!

of fat fingers on iPhone.

Yup, the Brits have cornered the market on being judgy pants on what people wear. You never get the French or the Italians doing that.

Arf.

I don't know about the French but I spend a lot of time in Italy. You clearly don't or perhaps you do and are remarkably inobservant when surrounded by the most stylistically judgemental people on earth.