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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

"tutoring for grammar school is cheating". AIBU to be fuming at DSIL's attitude?

670 replies

twiceupinarms · 26/04/2013 19:29

namechange coz as much as I don't care if she reads this, I don't want her to know my normal nickname.Angry
I am getting my DD tutored for grammar school. DSIL thinks it's cheating if she can't get in without being tutored and will therefor struggle when she gets there. for fucksake, the exams are not based on school curriculum - it's like being a brilliant footballer but been trialled to get in the team on your ability to tie your laces. fucksake.
Anyone else encountered this attitude?
Oh I can add hypocrisy to the list? Her DD audtitioned to go to Stage Boarding School. Did she do any practice/preparations for the audition? Only 9 lessons a week, every week, for 6 years.
Angry
AIBU to be cross?

OP posts:
seeker · 28/04/2013 10:21

That's fine, MT- you know best.

Budgiegirlbob · 28/04/2013 10:59

seeker - are you telling me that the authorities will object to an after school club run by a couple of pro active parents and/or a few teachers donating their time like they do with the football club.and rugby?

Our primary would absolutely object , whether that's because of the headteacher or the LEA I have no idea, but it would definitely not be allowed.

I mean, I Googled it and there appear to be lots of local rags with stories about 11+ clubs being held at their local schools. Sometimes there are interviews with the HM, sometimes with some talking head from the for-profit organization running it.

MTS,If you could post a link to a club where parents voluntarily run it, I would genuinely love to see it. I just find it hard to believe parents would tutor "the competition". It's not like running an after school sports or art club, and I say this as someone who is a cub leader, and who's husband does run an after school football club.

MTSgroupie · 28/04/2013 11:07

Budgie - I suggested that pro active parents could start up a club. I didn't say that i knew of such parents.

What is being questioned here is seeker's assertion that the ban on such clubs is not at school level but higher up. I am merely asking seeker for a link.

MTSgroupie · 28/04/2013 11:14

... Not quite 11+ tutoring but DD's music teacher coached DD for a music scholarship audition (she got it) despite her niece competing for same scholarship. Ok, she gets paid for it but she didn't have to put 110% into the prep.

You and I (and a lot of others) wouldn't tutor the competition but that's not to say all mums are like us :-)

Snoopingforsoup · 28/04/2013 11:17

YABU. It is cheating.

I love how parents who tutor compare the 11+ tutoring to be the same as an athlete training. Not everyone can be an elite athlete either!
Lance Armstrong was discredited for using drugs. Is it not the same principle at the end of the day?
There's nothing wrong with hard work and natural ability but you are supporting a tutoring industry that means kids can no longer write an essay at A level without a tutor holding their hand!
Sorry, but you asked!

racmun · 28/04/2013 11:18

FFS of course its not cheating - cheating would be you or the tutor sitting the exam for him!!!

He's still going to have to go in and perform on the day.

Lots of private prep schools do prepare the kids for entrance exam at my sister's school virtually the whole term before exams was geared up to the 11+ Doing practice papers etc.

As far as I know the state sector don't prep the children up in the same way ? (I'm happy to be corrected).

Also are parent's helping their children prepare for exams also cheating? Is anyone really saying they send their children in totally unprepared??

What about if you're a parent who can't help your child yourself for whatever reason why shouldn't you get a tutor.

Personally I would ignore your SIL it sounds as though she is jealous and trying to our you off trying by saying he'll struggle to keep up etc.....

Give you ds the best chance you can to go to the best school. If that means a bit of extra help to be able particular types of questions then I would do it without hesitation

Snoopingforsoup · 28/04/2013 11:29

11+ / Grammar was set up to give the brightest kids a good education regardless of background.
This has been hijacked by middle-class parents who can afford tutoring!
No one was tutored for 11+ in my area and the brightest got the places.
We had one mock exam prior to the real thing and everyone automatically sat the exam one morning.
That was always my understanding of the 11+ and I'm pretty aggrieved that now you can buy your way in! It's a stealthy way of getting a private education on the state!
It's this crap that will finally do away with the Grammars somewhere down the line!

MTSgroupie · 28/04/2013 11:32

[grun

MTSgroupie · 28/04/2013 11:38

Damn my fat fingers. Let's try again.

Grin at the double standards being displayed

Tutoring is obviously cheating.

Sending DC to football training camp so that he can get a place on the school team is not cheating. Sending DC on a Easter GCSE/A Level cramming course is not cheating. Have individual music lessons for DC is not cheating. It's not your fault that the other kids in the competition can only afford group lessons eh?

MTSgroupie · 28/04/2013 11:45

Snooping - I am not MC and I did not hire a tutor and all three passed.

Pass papers are free from the Internet and are you seriously telling me that only MC parents are able to help their DCs with a test designed for 10 year olds?

Some parents won't/can't Google "11+" for whatever reason. It would be great if some people could accept that instead of using MC people as the excuse as to why their DC didn't pass

seeker · 28/04/2013 11:48

It's not cheating. It completely negates the reason grammar schools were created and is perpetuates a divided and unfair society, but it's not cheating.

seeker · 28/04/2013 11:50

"Pass papers are free from the Internet and are you seriously telling me that only MC parents are able to help their DCs with a test designed for 10 year olds?"

Nope. Nobody's telling you that.

People might be telling you that only parents with a certain level of education, understanding, leisure and involvement can do that, though.

Snoopingforsoup · 28/04/2013 12:01

Good for you MTS. I'd say yours is an example of how it should be and proves a point.
I am basing my response on the people I know now natch.
I am sick of reading the generalisations from people who wish to defend their choice with the comparisons to Athletes. Try buying your way into Man United with average ability! Even with endless footie camps, the kid has to have something natural and it still may not be enough!
The prep school comparison always comes up! Prep schools are nearly always preparing kids for private secondary schools, many of which no longer contain VR and NVR in their entrance exams anyway. There are not many kids go from prep to state Grammar in my experience.
People generalise to defend their actions and who wouldn't want the best education they can get for their kids? But let's not pretend it's not cheating because actually, tutoring kids is causing longer term problems.
University now requires tutoring it would seem because kids have got used to tutors telling them how to do things.
How are these Grads going to think for themselves in the workplace?
I do wonder!

MTSgroupie · 28/04/2013 12:03

seeker - why do you have such a patronising towards WC people?

It's evident in the way you talk about the parents at your DS's school. So what if classical music is not top of their list for must-have school activities.

I mean, are you seriously saying that only educated MC moms like you are capable of googling for past 11+ papers?

seeker · 28/04/2013 12:08

"I mean, are you seriously saying that only educated MC moms like you are capable of googling for past 11+ papers?"

Nope. I am saying "only parents with a certain level of education, understanding, leisure and involvement can do that, though."

But, fair enough, MT-you know best.

Budgiegirlbob · 28/04/2013 12:34

You and I (and a lot of others) wouldn't tutor the competition but that's not to say all mums are like us :-)

MTS, I'll agree with you there. There possibly are parents like that out there, but I think you'd have to search long and hard to find one! If they are out there, they are certainly a better person than I am Smile

I still can't really see how tutoring is cheating. Would anyone say that getting extra tutoring for a child struggling with a particular GCSE was cheating, or just helping? I can't really see the difference.

seeker · 28/04/2013 12:51

"Would anyone say that getting extra tutoring for a child struggling with a particular GCSE was cheating, or just helping? I can't really see the difference."

I don't think it's cheating either. But the is a big difference between GCSE and 11+. Your child getting an A for GCSE maths doesn't mean another child gets an E.

JuliaScurr · 28/04/2013 12:52

seeker you are right
the reason dd is at a sodding grammar is it has the best pastoral care and was recommended by the genius head of her last primary which she couild only attend if we went with her (anxiety) No way could that happen at secondary (instant peer group isolation disaster) and friends said the comps were crap on pastoral so we did 11+
of course it's full of middle class kids
you can tell by the names - Eleanor, Danielle, Chloe, Rebecca. Not Jamie-Lee, Britney. Chelsii. They're all at the 'comprehensives'. Friends with non-academic dc say it's hideous; two have 'chosen' home ed because the sen of dc are not met at the comps. Exactly what happened to us at the first 2 primaries dd tried.
purely luck that dd is academic. Neurotic and academic :)

JuliaScurr · 28/04/2013 12:55

and seeker gce grades used to be ranked in comparison with the whole cohort who took it; Gove prob wants to return

Budgiegirlbob · 28/04/2013 13:15

I don't think it's cheating either. But the is a big difference between GCSE and 11+. Your child getting an A for GCSE maths doesn't mean another child gets an E.

When I was at school, (long time ago!) it did mean that, as only a certain percentage were awarded each grade. Not the case any more I know. I was given extra tutoring for Oxbridge exams, (not that it did any good Smile ), and obviously there were limited places, but I still don't consider that to be cheating, just putting in the extra effort.

ReallyTired · 28/04/2013 14:08

Life is never a level playing field. Some children go to top private schools where as other children have to attend schools that are in special measures. Some children have kind attentive parents who look after them where as other children are regularly raped, proscuited and abused in all kinds of dispictable ways.

I think that its the grammar school system that is unfair rather than tutoring. The big issue is no transfer between different type of schools and selection being done at a young age.

I send my son to a tutor because his school in special meaures. We aren't doing the eleven plus so are we cheating. Is it cheating to pay for guitar lessons?

seeker · 28/04/2013 17:27

"I think that its the grammar school system that is unfair rather than tutoring."

Absolutely!!!!

Snoopingforsoup · 28/04/2013 18:27

I always thought tutors were for kids that were struggling!
Or music tutors to teach kids music/instruments not on the curriculum.
What I endure is parents tutoring their kids so they remain in the top set of a private primary and then pass them off as genius's/prodigy's.
They then Hoover up all the scholarships pushing the bar so high that naturally talented kids at say piano who have reached a grade 4 with a real flair, now have to be pushed to a grade 5 to compete with the robots!
Grammar Schools were not supposed to favour the wealthy but they do. And those with kids in Grammar bang on about how unfair the private schools are! It's a feckin' joke!
I look forward to generations of clueless adults who can't think for themselves.

mathanxiety · 28/04/2013 20:20

If it is cheating to send your child for tutoring is it also cheating to read a lot to your child when he is very young, to provide educational toys, to play maths games and explain scientific principles on nature walks, to broaden your child's vocabulary and use correct grammar, to limit TV time if you believe there are better ways to stimulate a growing brain, to encourage reading and buy attractive books, etc?

Because if there are children who grow up without those elements in their lives and whose educational progress is hampered by that lack, surely by doing all of that with your child you are giving your child an unfair advantage?

mathanxiety · 28/04/2013 20:22

I think that its the grammar school system that is unfair rather than tutoring. The big issue is no transfer between different type of schools and selection being done at a young age.

I agree with ReallyTired.