Why don't they just accept that motorbikes are deathtraps and campaign against people riding them?

[GoshAnneGorilla]

Instead of spending so much time and money going on at car drivers, wouldn't it be better to discourage people from using motorbikes in the first place?

Oh FFS ZZR, no one on this website has the power to magically change the law and stop motorbikes existing just because some people on an internet forum talk about it. If that were the case, SAHMs would earn more than CEOs and killing someone who parks in a parents with prams parking spot would be justifiable homicide.

However, seemingly intelligent adults can have a discussion and put forward different points of view. It's called a debate. And rarely does the person ranting and raving like a lunatic get taken seriously in a debate.

Yabu
Motor bikes are great
They are only dangerous if ridden incorrectly, or more usually due to poor driving standards of car users

Sorry mate I didn't see you indeed

As a biker myself what WeAreEternal said. Taking an extra couple of seconds to look for motorcycles doesn't just save the life of bikers but also pedestrians and cyclists. As does not talking on your bloody mobile when it's not hands free and a million other things I see car drivers do that bikers can't/don't.

A study (Clarke et al 2004) [...] there are 3 basic discernible motorcycle crash types:

• Right of way violation accidents (38% of cases)
• Loss of control at bends at speed (11% plus of cases)
• Overtaking/filtering accidents (15% of cases)

Clarke et al found that road users other than the injured motorcyclists are usually the cause of crashes and therefore road safety initiatives should be targeted at those other road users in addition to bikers.

Taking that extra time to shoulder check before you change lanes or actually using your indicator before moving your vehicle would help. So yes, actually assigning blame and getting the perps to fix their behaviour is, actually, a valid way of preventing death on the roads. Victim blaming rarely prevents anything.

You get muppets in every section of society, don't get me started on bikers without gloves on, you'll get bloody stumps if you come off numpty.

European research says that over half of the accidents involving motorcycles/mopeds occur at junctions. Figures in the UK show that 48% of crashes between motorcycles and cars were the result of the car driver failing to look properly. So just take the extra seconds to look and stop blaming the victims, the life you save could be a child stepping out into the road not just a biker.

Oh and YABVVVVVVVVU.

LovesABig4Tiggaxx

'A TOOL IS ONLY AS DANGEROUS AS THE PERSON WEILDING IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!'

Quite. But if you react in this manner frequently ZZR then I'd hate to encounter you in a road related incident.

I think a lot of bike riders have defended motorcyclists on this thread, plenty of non riders have also spoken out against the OP's idea but the difference is we did it calmly and rationally, not like our heads were on fire. And that's how you get people to listen.

A TOOL IS ONLY AS DANGEROUS AS THE PERSON WEILDING IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

well, that isn't actually true.

If I've got a hammer with a hickory handle, and a proper steel head firmly attached with a wedge, I am less likely to be injured with it than if I have one with a cracked handle, a wrongly-hardened head that emits splinters of steel, and no wedge so that the head flies off and hits me in the face. Rgeardless of my care and skill in using it, and the absence of otherwise of other people throwing bricks at me while I hammer.

However skilled and careful you are, the casualty rate is higher on a bike than in a car. Even if you subtract all the accidents that are someone else's fault.

This is entirely separate from the blame arguments and the freedom arguments.

Fair point John.

This is where pedal cycling arguably differs, as the numerous health benefits of the exercise gained go a long way to compensate for the slightly increased risk of being killed by a HGV.

Yes please use your indicators before you move. And use your mirrors. Afterwards is no good.

It is easy to be brave in a car, or thoughtless in how you drive. There is no divine right for you to act like you own the road because you occupy more of it. If you are on your mobile I report you to the police. You aren't paying attention to the road.

I would like to see Dutch style liability laws for driving here. The larger the vehicle, the greater the responsibility. If you hit someone in a smaller vehicle, the liability will rest with you unless there are exceptional circumstances.

yes, I'm curious about reporting drivers using their mobiles whilst driving. Would the police be intersted?

As I'm pedalling away and drawing level with cars it's really to see what people are doing when they are supposed to be concentrating. Couple of weeks ago there was a woman eating her cereal. One hand on bowl, one hand on spoon, presumably steering wheel between her thighs/knees.

Pan!

I'm a cyclist (pedal) and really fancy getting one of those helmet cams tbh. I wonder whether the police would prosecute dangerous driving based on the video evidence from them?

Can't even be arsed, here have this and go lay in the cotton wool!

FFS play not lay, though laying would obviously be safer.

Off to work out how to hide the thread.....oh there :)

I think it depends on the local police IF they would be intersted, and just how bad the driving was possibly?

The vast vast majority of drivers are really fine and polite, ime anyway. But I don't ride in central London which seems to be a jungle of it's own.

I thought of ths thread today as I was pulling out of sainsbury car park I was cut up badly by another car - I wasn't going fast and I stopped to avoid a collision, but what made me roll my eyes was the fact that as I came up behind this car at the roundabout in the back window was a sticker

Think bike
Think biker

shame the driver didn't think to use there near side wing mirror....

Wow. Who said gross prejudice and stupidness are dead!!!!!!!!!

So let's make sure I get this right, all bikers ride dangerously, too fast, and filtering shouldn't be allowed cos cars can't. Not to mention that helmets are scary and you can't tell what sex we are in our protective gear. Oh yes and it is always our fault if an incident happens because the other party didn't see us because they don't think they need to use mirrors, indicators, spatial awareness or engage their brains!

Damn I should stop riding at or under the speed limit and being road aware, and saying thanks to those who nudge over for me and buy into the obviously fair and level headed thinking!

Next time a car driver cuts me up, tries to undertake, change lanes without looking or indicating, chucks a cig butt out of the window (again without looking) or decides to swerve to stop my legal filtering I will pull along side and profusely apologise for their actions, getting in their way and generally being annoying to their sensabilities and belief that their opinion is the only corrct one.

I knew i should have apologised to the woman driver who nearly took me out cos she was too busy reading paperwork, or the young lad who was having such an animated chat on his mobile phone that he didn't think it was important enough to have either hand on the wheel or go travel in a straight line (nearly hitting the coach on one side and the central reservation on the other) and obviously it was my fault that the male driver changed lanes without looking whilst shaving.

I would add I have a clean driving licence for 26 years and not all drivers are numpties. I wouldn't generalise car drivers, cyclists, bikers or pedestrians as all dangerous idiots. In every area there are both sensible people and idiots.

However buying into governmental biased report is right up there on the numpty scale.

Its like the hi viz report saying it will save lives when an independent report stated that as soon as the brain recgonises the hi viz isn't police related it is no longer a visusal deterent and people immediatly ignore it. This process takes the brain less than a couple of seconds to carry out. Do I wear hi vis ....yes cos it makes me feel better and also I have the knowledge that no legal bod can blame me for not wearing it because a "Smidsy" was in action.

fault isn't the point. It's vulnerability.

If an egg falls on a stone, alas for the egg.

If a stone falls in an egg, alas for the egg.

You're the egg.

Everyone is vulnerable whatever you use for transport....however the initial post was.......

"Why don't they just accept that motorbikes are deathtraps and campaign against people riding them"

Many other comments were implying all bikers are dangerous or we scare drivers and we are as a whole unpredictable.

I and every biker I know take extreme care with regard to safety. One of the MAIN reasons we are vulnerable is the behaviour and complete lack of awareness of other road users and further despite bbc crap reporting and governmental biaised reports the MAIN reason for motorbike incidents are Smidsy drivers.

Yes there is a minority of idiot riders but most of us are responsible on the roads as we are more than aware we don't bounce.

The given ethos that we just get on a bike and ride around like loons is narrowminded, especially given the new regs and the fact that learning to ride is actually tougher than learning to drive (as a friend's son told me after learning to drive and ride). There are limits now for different ages, where engine size is limited for bike riders, unlike young drivers who can after passing their test get into any car they want regardless of engine size.

Rowan - It is hard to have much bias in numbers of dead people.

Motorcyclists are 1% of road users, and account for 19% of road deaths. Please show me where the bias occurs.

Piglet - Thank you for the stone and egg analogy, that is my point exactly.

I posted in AIBU because I wanted to have a debate (btw, that's not the same as trolling or stirring), but I am baffled as to how irate some people have been. "Needing a lie down" and "Hiding the thread", seems a bit excessive.

I do think if motorbikes where some new fad that had been imported from abroad and had the same death/accident rates that they do now, they would almost certainly be banned.

Many other comments were implying all bikers are dangerous or we scare drivers and we are as a whole unpredictable.

I said that they scare me, because they do. Sadly, I have seen so many poor bikers that aren't doing the right things. Other drivers scare the heck out of me too. So do cyclists not in the bike lanes. And toddlers crossing roads without holding their parents hands. It's because I don't trust anyone that I've managed to not have an accident in all my years of driving. I can only take responsibility for my own safety on their road to make sure I don't injure someone else and I always work on the assumption that the other person will do something stupid and err on the side of caution.

What annoys me is that a particular group of people (in this case bikers) are expecting a whole other group of people to be responsible for their safety, without accepting and addressing faults in their own behaviour that can lead to some very avoidable incidents.

Hang on a moment. You're generalising there Midnite. I and many, many other sensible motorcyclists do NOT in any way expect other road users to take responsibility for my/our safety.

We ride safely, we stick within the speed limit, we are careful and aware and defensive when riding.

If you treat us a bit like any other vehicle then we all should be ok.

I do filter at times but I do it slowly and carefully (and noisily enough to be heard) so that if anything did occur, through someone's error, it would be more likely a near miss at slow speed than an actual incident.

I have to say this rarely happens, that drivers don't know I'm coming along beside them. Very rarely.

However I was overtaken when driving the other day by some idiot on a bike who appeared at speed out of nowhere, which did make me jump, and yes I called him names under my breath.

There are bikers and there are motorcyclists. We're not all the same. I drive a car, since 18 years, I ride a bike for 12. I cycle as well.

Cyclists often freak me out on the road.

My thinking is still that motor cars and bikes should have a separate road system to pedal cycles, because we're basically incompatible if we want things to be efficient. But if people on motorbikes behave themselves then they are basically very compatible with cars. I often ride in a steady flow of traffic, same speed as an ordinary car, just I'm a bit narrower.

Many people who ride bikes DO love the thrill of speeding, but I can't say I have ever understood that. And I would guess that a whole lot more of us don't care a hoot how fast we are going, we just love to be on a bike full stop.

So please don't put us all into one box labelled 'maniacs' because I think you'll find that's a huge misconception.

No, I actually agree with you Goombay, there are many good bikers out there (over here we tend to refer to people who ride motorcycles as 'bikers' and the less savory element as "bikies" just so you understand why I use the term I do) just as there are many good drivers, cyclists, pedestrians and horse riders. My point is that I take responsibility for myself on the road. I'm careful, cautious and I do make the assumption that someone may do something silly because I'd rather be prepared for the worst than get lulled in to a false sense of security. I do drive a very large vehicle, and I'm hyper aware of the damage I could do if I'm involved in an accident. I was hit last year (whilst stationary at a traffic light) and my vehicle had a few scratches on the tail gate, whilst his was a complete write off, so I know the potential for my vehicle to cause serious injury.

What I'm saying is that everyone needs to be aware of themselves and other vehicles, regardless of what type of vehicle they are driving. For example, I was always taught not to drive in someone's blind spot if I could avoid it, for the very reason that it is a blind spot. So for a biker (or any vehicle) to pootle along in someone's blind spot for a few kms, there is the potential there for a person to pull out. I'd much rather someone overtake, or sit behind me, rather than on my shoulder as it's a much safer place to drive. I'll check, double and triple check and indicate well before I make a lane change to make sure I don't hit anyone, but bikers could make themselves safer by not driving there in the first place because not everyone may be as obsessive about checking as I am. Road safety is a two way street (pardon the pun!).

Of course Op you wanted a debate, that's why you couched your op in deliberately inflammatory language.

Yes you're absolutely right Midnite. If everyone drove or rode with your way of thinking, it would be far safer out there.

By the way, ' I was hit last year (whilst stationary at a traffic light) and my vehicle had a few scratches on the tail gate, whilst his was a complete write off, so I know the potential for my vehicle to cause serious injury. '

I want whatever car you've got!
(when you say large - my first car was a LWB transit, it was 17ft long, and I destroyed a few gateposts reversing in that...)

Mine is a Holden 4x4 dual cab ute that has had a big canopy on the back which has been built in with dog cages. Because of that, the blind spot is shocking for me, but she (and her big bull bar) has saved my life numerous times against early morning suicidal roos, so I'll keep her. It's also good fun for watching the faces of men when you pull up somewhere and can reverse park the trailer first go. "Chicks" shouldn't know how to do that apparently.

The other driver had a honda fake suv wannabe thing. My tow ball ripped the guts out of his engine and left it crying like collingwood supporter when they loose a match. He hit me at 80ks per hour and it had to be written off.

I wanted to have a debate.

No, you didn't. You just wanted to pretend that you are clever by taking a tired, boring position on a topic that does more rounds than an Eagles comeback tour.

Don't you have another, more constructive outlet for this clearly misplaced genius?