to hope the government has the guts to tax WEALTHY pensioners more

[ReallyTired]

The Fabian society has suggested that wealthy pensioners pay more tax.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-22220345

Some how I can't see a conservative wanting to tax wealthy pensioners more when they all vote Tory.

I find it unfair that pensioners with an income more the average family's income get free bus buses, winter fuel allowance, TV licence as well as paying less tax and national insurance. It is about time that the the wealthy pensioners took their share of the pain of the cuts.

I am in favour of well off pensioners having free bus passes, winter fuel allowance as these things encourage independence and improve health. I would like to see the money for these things clawed back by WEALTHY pensioners paying more income tax.

Getting the elderly to pay for my lifestyle hardly.

Getting the elderly to pay for the services they need.

They didn't pay in enough,the figures don't match up(and this won't go away)somebody has to make up the shortfall and the younger generations are already doing their bit.

Square pebbles- I wonder how you're going to feel if in 25 years time someone is posting berating your husband because he didn't pay enough in to find whatever your families needs are.... You are moaning already about him paying the tax he's instructed to. Yet you seem to blame pensioners for not having dipped into their own pockets and paid over and above the tax, NI, pension contributions which they were TOLD to pay!! You sound like the sort of person who blows whichever way the wind blows.... No doubt you think the rules should all be changed when you're elderly

fund your family's needs

square - then what is your problem?

I can count 76k in household taxes this year (excluding VAT) and I have not even paid myself for 2012-2013, yet.

we pay taxes because the country needs us to.

Squarepebbles- your husband earns in excess of £52,000 and you've been at home for 5 years. I too am struggling to see what your problem is, and why you seem so resentful of pensioners.

FasterStronger

we pay taxes because the country needs us to.

No, we pay taxes because otherwise we go to jail. And our taxes are so immense because of the inability of any government to stop spending Other People's Money.

Square - whatever you chose to do with your family is of course fine. However dont expect others to fund it.

One day maybe we will look at individuals and see exactly what they contributed in terms of tax revenues and think we will all get a big shock.

The fact that some SAHM's think that their choice is funded by their partner are in cloud cuckoo land. The children to educate, the NHS services being accessed. All being funded personally by their partner to enable them to jusitfy their lifestyle choice, and of course the pension contributions that are being paid despite not working....

Be careful what you wish for. What about people who use private insurance, can they get their money back? Same with education?

The bottom line is, it doesn't matter how much we argue among ourselves, all of us are seeing and will continue to see a very reduced standard of living over the next decade or so. Life will get much worse for most of us before it gets better. Big cuts still need to be made. No one likes it, but that is the bottom line. As Liam Byrne said when he left the treasury, "there's no money left". No one wants to pay more tax. No one wants to see anything they receive cut. The government are in a tricky situation and they know it. I wouldn't want to be in government at the moment. I guess they will continue to kick the can down the road and leave it for the next government to deal with, the same as the previous government. I don't know what the answers are, but it's very scary.

The higher tax band is continuously being reduced,all perks pensioners had we won't have because they're too expensive.We'll be paying more tax,getting less.It's inevitable so there will be no shocks at the end.We'll be getting buggar all for them to take away.

Sorry but current pensioners are one demographic in history we'll never see again and never saw before.There is simply no argument to treating one section of society in history in preference to all others.

The country is in the shit,all must pay their way.

Janey because it's been far from easy or us so heaven help what it must be like for others and every section of society bar pensioners and the rich are contributing towards getting the country out if the shit.

It isn't fair.

Oh right so all this righteous indignation is on others behalf square pebbles? Not because you're just pissed off that your husband earns 52k and you're a SAHM and you somehow think the rest of society owes you something?!

Most pensioners didn't get tax credit handouts. Or housing benefit. And a lot of them lived quite hard lives. And really a lot of elderly people have only very small private pensions and some don't have any. SAHM's expecting a wage for being at home.

A wage for looking after your own children and your own husband and cleaning your own house. I am in favour of tax breaks for SAHM's but not a wage. Such as their taxable allowance being transferred to their partner. But then you would get single parents saying this is unfair. People have to make choices according to their means and circumstances.

What are you on Janey?

No my indignation is for us too and my dc.

When I go back to work( assuming I find something)everything I earn will need to go on helping the dc with uni(the living expense loans they'll be eligible for won't be enough) and putting into some kind of retirement provision. When I had 3 dc I was under the assumption they'd always get CB and free uni education,an NHS etc and have always paid accordingly.

So we'll still be diving a banger,keeping hearing bills own etc.

I've had to face reality so sorry why exactly shouldn't pensioners?

Big yes I think that would be fairer,oh and basing CB cuts on household income.

Not going to happen though as they need the cash and won't touch pensioners.

Sorry Viv

What perks for pensioners Square? Where is this alternative universe where pensioners get perks? Is it the perk of living through WW2 and no national health service, lving off food rations and doing conscription? What perks - please explain?

postbellum

"Their savings are going on private carers to come in and help my mum take my dad to the loo and put him to bed. Eventually, dad will be too poorly to stay at home anymore and then his savings will pay for a private nursing home & if there is any left after he dies, after death duties have been paid, Mum will live off the rest & then when she gets ill, the same process will start all over again. Eventually, they'll both be dead & the Govt coffers will be well-lined with the money that they spent their whole lives saving, after they had already paid tax on it"

So your parents saved up money for their old age and now have to spend it on themselves in old age. Doesn't that seem fair? The alternative is that the state pays for their old age care, and others like them, placing a huge burden on young working taxpayers with their student loans, and then you get to inherit their money that you have not worked for. That seems a less good option for society.

BTW, the tax your parents paid in the past has already been spent (on roads, police, defence, education, welfare, past pensioners) - it's not sitting in a pot ready to be reclaimed. Well done them for remaining financially independent - they can truly be proud of themselves. And IF they do ever run out of the savings then the state WILL step in, which is also how it should be - an emergency safety net for the poorest.

undercover - I'm not saying it isn't fair, they are not saying it isn't fair - I'm asking what extra taxes they should pay? That was the title of the thread & I'm making the point, they've paid tax all their lives & taken precious little, they are still financially independent - but what more tax is it that they should pay?

I think they should have just abolished child benefit and lumped it in with the universal credit. That way, there would be none of the current single vs. double income discrepancies. The households that really need it would still receive it and the cost of running the child benefit office would be gone. They could do exactly the same with the WFA payments and lump them in with the state pension. It was after all, just a bung from the last labour government. They could have just increased the state pension. All of these add ons and bolt ons need to be cut and lumped into one, easy to understand payment and should be only available for the really needy. I can't understand why governments go through the hassle of taxing families/pensioners and then giving them a little bit back from the money they earned in the first place. The cost of administering all of this must be huge.

jacks - I agree with you on this:

"If those are no better off due to excessive tax etc than those solely funded by the government then people will stop saving for their future and the bill to the government will increase even more".

I am making exactly that calculation. I dont expect politicians to deal with the problem of old age inanything other than a purely self interested way. I expect them to keep pandering to the grey vote. One day I will be in the grey vote. The incentive is there to vote myself benefits and a big pension. I dont like it but I cant stop it happening.

In political theory it is called Tyranny of the majority.

We are already past the point of more than 50% of the population relying on the state for their income (ie as pensioner, recipient of benefits, or who work for the state) then guess what happens?

The majority always vote themselves bigger pensions, bigger civil service pay and bigger benefits and they tax the minority to pay for it - until the state goes bankrupt. See Greece for details.

Quick history lesson cb was brought in as a bit of a jiggery pockery to disguise a tax cut ie loss of tax breaks for children. It replaced family allowance which was brought in to transfer some money from dads wage packet to mum's purse. Anyone earning over 100k doesn't get a personal allowance so even under the old system wouldn't have got anything.

How did you expect free uni education for your children? My nearly 40 yo sister had to take out student loans over 20 years ago.

Pensioners have been hit or rather are being hit by the equalising of the personal allowances but the fact is that we as a country made promises and we need to abide by them regarding things like the nhs and pensions. Imagine you go on holiday after agreeing what you'll get for the money and half way through the holiday firm says sorry we miscalculated so hand over more money would you think that was fair? No you would demand what you'd paid for so the holiday firm recoup from other holidaymakers by putting up prices and that is what is happening here.

We need to encourage everyone to provide for themselves and for their future but you don't do that by hammering those who have already done that.

Oh and in the meantime pay as little tax and NI as possible and vote for policies that allow and encourage me to do that.

Post NHS started in 1948,my father at 70 was 2 when war ended in 1945 so he hardly lived through it and will have enjoyed the NHS every year of his life bar he first 5.

Rationing ended on a sliding scale (things taken off gradually)in 1954 with I think sweets being the final thing.To be honest going by what many families live on these days I'm not sure it was that tough in the 50s.So pensioners hardly lived through rationing either.

Think people need to brush up on their history before banging the pensioners fought the war drum.

Squarepebbles Tue 23-Apr-13 13:27:30

Post NHS started in 1948,my father at 70 was 2 when war ended in 1945 so he hardly lived through it and will have enjoyed the NHS every year of his life bar he first 5.

it was a very different NHS: my uncle (similar age to your DF) died aged 5 from a simple infection because there was not treatment.

you cannot pretend the old style cheap NHS is the same as todays high tech but expensive NHS.

Oh and fruit and veg were never rationed so given that we're told to eat less meat(most families can't afford vast amounts these days) they probably ate healthier.

Interestingly we once visited a house that had the sugar rations allocated to kids each week in jars- omg 'twas waaaay more than my dc eat in a week.