to hope the government has the guts to tax WEALTHY pensioners more

[ReallyTired]

The Fabian society has suggested that wealthy pensioners pay more tax.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-22220345

Some how I can't see a conservative wanting to tax wealthy pensioners more when they all vote Tory.

I find it unfair that pensioners with an income more the average family's income get free bus buses, winter fuel allowance, TV licence as well as paying less tax and national insurance. It is about time that the the wealthy pensioners took their share of the pain of the cuts.

I am in favour of well off pensioners having free bus passes, winter fuel allowance as these things encourage independence and improve health. I would like to see the money for these things clawed back by WEALTHY pensioners paying more income tax.

MoreBeta Tue 23-Apr-13 10:43:24

jacks - a house does provide an income.

It comes in the form of the rent you would otherwise have to pay but avoid by owning.

=====>>>> your analysis is comparing having a pension and renting against house to live in and as an investment.

A house can provide income to the owner - for most people who have a mortgage the owner of their house is a bank or building society. So, yes the house is providing income by means of interest on the loan to the bank or building society!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Squarepebbles- it wasnt a choice for many of the older generation to be at home- that's the whole point! Day nurseries didn't exist when my mum was raising kids, and childminders were few and far between and frankly many careers were denied to mums anyway. It seems you want to blame the older generation for things which were out of their control.

I also find it a tad ironic that those of us who are accepting that it's tough times, and we have to pay more out are those of us who are actually working, while those bleating about that older generation seem to be those who don't want to work, and expect other people to pay for that through higher taxation.

Yes, it is funny isnt it that the ones moaning and complaining are the ones who are not working. Some are claiming that their partners are paying 'their share of their tax'! Of course they arent, EVERYONE is paying for your choices - not just one person.

And as I said before - lets get some number crunching done, lets see who has paid what in...

Squarepebbles Tue 23-Apr-13 10:27:05

Errrr you're expecting younger generations to fund their choice of mothers not working ever whilst claiming years of CB/ uni fees/ grants, WFA,benefits and not paying enough NI as a family etc,etc

and what about all the pensioners who didn't benefit from your list above?

Morebeta i fully understand what you are saying about saving money by not paying rent but the question is what will you live on? If you downsize and put the money into savings you then pay tax on your savings but i get the impression that you want to spend every penny so the government will have to fund you instead but if everyone thinks that way then we go into an even worse downward spiral.

We all know the government will pick up the pieces if we don't provide for ourselves but some people want better than the basic and work hard to achieve it. If those are no better off due to excessive tax etc than those solely funded by the government then people will stop saving for their future and the bill to the government will increase even more. Its similar to the argument about making work pay more than benefits. You need to give people an incentive to do things for themselves and putting even more of a burden on today's wealthy pensioners will have a long term negative effect.

Faster that would only be childless pensioners now relying on the children of others to fund and care for them.

Jacks - and that is exactly why we are both working and getting our retirement funded!

If we are penalised and classed as 'wealthy pensioners' and viewed by others as being 'lucky' then what is the point. The other thing we might consider doing is move to another country and if more and more do this who will fund these crackpot ideas about paying people to not work (ie SAHP's) or giving endless benefits to the feckless who dont work but will be expecting others to look after them...

What about all the pensioners providing for themselves Squarepebbles? In a society with a social welfare safety net - there will always be people who will be paid for to some extent or even completely by the State, be they pensioners, the unemployed, the disabled, care home kids etc.
The idea has to be that you don't take the piss and live the life of riley, while everyone else picks up the bill. I'm not saying that anyone does lead the life of riley on benefits - just saying that has to be some kind of basic principle - otherwise who the hell would bother working?

square so there are only 2 groups of pensioners:

(1) their choice of mothers not working ever whilst claiming years of CB/ uni fees/ grants, WFA,benefits and not paying enough NI as a family etc,etc

(2) childless pensioners now relying on the children of others to fund and care for them.

really??? these are the only 2 groups of pensioners?

Janey there are very few women who don't want to work.Many want a few years off when their dc are tiny in the interest of their children and family.

Out of my 43 years I have had only 5 years out of work and now my dc are all in school I am currently job hunting.I started working at 13, worked all through uni,funded my dp's Masters and year off to do it.My dp is 46 and has also worked since he was 13, he has never not worked and moved where ever he needed to to further his career which he works hard at.

I simply am in favour of help being given to families who feel a short career break would be beneficial to their children.Other families are not as fortunate as us and more than pay their way in a lifetime to warrant a little help for a very short period of time in the interests of their children.

When you consider what pensioners have paid in and expect back it's far from unreasonable.

Square - working from 13 - really!! I had a paper round at 13 and paid £3. Its not going to fund me taking years off to be a SAHM!

And I strongly disagree, there are plenty of women around here (South Bucks) who dont work because they have had children very early and the mothers who have husbands working in the city...

They will be the minority.

On another thread I read a third of women are sahm,a third work part time and a third full time.

I made a lot more than £3and saved ££££££ for uni( not sure it would be poss now)I'm just saying I've had 5 years not working woopy doo.

The rent that we are avoiding by owning errrr that would be owning after paying a mortgage for [in my case] 30 years,often at a punitive interest rate-over 20% at its highest.
My dd has said that if I become too infirm to manage alone we will adapt her house so I can live with then.Dss will do the same for dh. We have 5 dc aged between 38 and 44 [comparable to many of the moaners I guess].Every one of them is married,has a career and is a mortgage paying home owner.They all got where they are by hard work and determination. Between them they have 9 dc. The two SAHMs are now working part time as their dc are older.None of our dc thinks we should pay more.
I told dd about this debate and her advice was "Back out of it mum-they werent there when dad was dying and you worked your socks off or when we had grandparents living with us.They didn't see the times you helped us out and enabled us to move forward.Just leave it before you get upset!"
I'm may be tougher than she thinks; I wont be upset but I think there are some very 'entitled' people on this thread.

Square, what do these pensioners expect back? My parents get their state pensions, a few winter fuel allowance payments and a free bus pass and they've just qualified for their free TV licence. These are the only state payments they've ever had, other than child benefit. They live just outside a small village & it is a one mile walk to the bus stop, so I don't think they're ever going to get to use that free bus pass!

My parents would really love to get some help from the state they've paid into all their lives now that my Dad is severely ill - but do you know what, they don't expect it. After the initial help from the hospital, they get nothing. They're not whinging, on the contrary, they are just carrying on, digging deep & coughing up for the help they have to have - because they've been careful all their lives.

Career breaks are a luxury. If people can afford that, then great but if you can't then it should be a "must have".

What is it that you expect my parents to pay so that you or I can stay at home for a few years with our children?

So, what can you do at 13 that will bring in all these big bucks, and your partner doing the same! I didnt think you could even employ 13 year olds. Where you paying tax on all these earnings and how did you fit school in... Sorry, it just doesnt make sense. Its like this women who stay at home saying their partners are paying their tax!

And 33% of women not working is a large part of the population and another 33% working part time makes it worse in terms of tax revenues.

Handcream- entirely agree with your posts.
I've also had people say to me: you're so lucky, your pension deal seems good. No- its not luck. I pay a LOT of money each month into my pension. I took short maternity leaves. I did drop down to 3 days a week when my children were Nursery age (which of course has knocked quite a bit off my pension!) but returned full time when the youngest was 4. Not everyone wants to do that. Some women want to stop working completely for 5, 8, whatever years. Some stay on part time earnings for many years after that. That's fine. It's their decision. But it does grind a bit when those self same people expect others to pay higher taxes to subsidise that choice.

There seem to he huge dollops of entitlement these days. And envy. Honestly, what on earth is there to be envious of pensioners about? Ok, some of them may have perceived 'advantages' but there are just as many disadvantages to counter that. Every generation has things better in some ways, worse in others. I think some people just live in a parallel universe where they honestly believe they can cherry pick the nicest bit from every generation... Access to a high flying career when they want it, but at the same time taxation to suit them if they wish to stop working; a nice fat pension at the end even though they haven't contributed, a nice centrally heated house with all the modern conveniences which our mums and grandmas didn't have, free childcare even though they don't work... All funded by that famous SOMEONE ELSE!!

Well said thegreylady
I am about your age and like you we worked our backsides off to keep our heads aove water.

Whilst agreeing that bus passes, winter fuel allowance should be income related.However what I can't understand why as OAP's we are unable to claim carer's allowance we are saving this country £millions

no I didn't pay tax but made shed loads(waitressing,annoying,babysitting,shop work) just making a point that because I've had 5 years off I'm hardly work shy.

All women should be working full time really,how does that fit in to quality of family life and the needs of all children?All so pensioners don't have to dip more into their pockets and book less Saga holidays.

My dp couldn't do his job and pay 40% tax with me working full time.If he made less to accommodate me working more the nation is no better off.

5 children grey,many couples can't afford a second these days.

And Janey pensioners want an NHS paid for by somebody else,they didn't pay enough in and are the reason the figures don't work.

Frankly square pebbles, if you have had 5 years off work, and a husband who earns as a HR tax payer, I don't think you'll get oodles of sympathy in your desire to get the elderly paying for your lifestyle. You're hardly on the breadline. That's what we mean by sense of entitlement.

Squarepebbles Tue 23-Apr-13 12:21:36

they paid in what they are asked to pay in.................................................................................................................................................... it is not their fault.

unless your DH earns over around 52k pa you don't even pay enough taxes for the services you both use in any year.

Faster he does.